Why is there so much hate for BioShock Infinite?

[StaceyPowers]

I’ve always noticed a fairly large chunk of BioShock fans who hate BioShock Infinite. The main complaints I hear are 1-confusing or random story (I didn’t think it terribly confusing, and not at all random), 2-lack of player agency (compelled by storyline), and 3-repetitious action (perhaps I agree, though it didn’t seem all that much more so to me than most games).

I feel like there must be some other unspoken reason for all the hate. Anyone know what it is?

[Shagger]

I feel a lot of haters of Bioshock Infinite don't like the game because they don't want to admit how the feel about the game's strong message regarding prejudice, race and discrimination. You know, the kind of people who always say "keep politics out of games" when most creative fiction of any medium that's worth a damb has social and/or political overtones. In other words, they're cowardly hypocrites unwilling to admit they're uncomfortable being confronted by these issues because deep down they know they're part of the very problem the game (or whatever media it is) is making a statement against. I will admit the message wasn't exactly subtlety presented, but it wasn't wrong and it made its point. 

 

I wouldn't know, but I've also heard it's a bit different from the other Bioshock games. In what way specifically, once again, I'm not the one to ask. 

[Withywarlock]

I'll admit I didn't 'get' BioShock Infinite. Just everything about it. I was too young and dumb to really appreciate its storytelling and messages, and focussed more on the decent combat. But I don't see much hate for it, at least not since about ~2020 when people had more time to catch up on games they'd not yet played. It was an absolute blast at the time though, and the shockwave of its fandom was on going for years afterwards, so it must've done something right. Or perhaps like me they didn't get it until now. /shrug.

Edited March 27, 2021 by Withywarlock

[m76]

I didn't like any bioshock game that much, if that makes you feel better. Bioshock was a direct ripoff of System Shock 2, only slightly worse in every way. It's big selling point was supposed to be the big daddy little sister pairs, but that got old after the first time you met one, after that it's just a generic enemy as much as any. And the so called "clever twist" in the story is a lie, because the player character must have been aware of it before the reveal, only the player is kept in the dark, which is a big reverse 4th wall break. Any relevant knowledge of to the player character should be readily available to the player. I can accept it if it's only a small part of the story, or in games where there are multiple playable characters, but making the whole story hinge on on hiding a very important fact about the playable character is not clever, it's an insult.

And Bioshock Infinite does the exact same thing with the story. The whole premise hinges on the fact that the player is kept in the dark. Which is just lazy storytelling and infuriating when it is finally revealed. What makes infinite even worse than bioshock is that instead of being a relatively competent immersive sim, it is a generic action game.

[m76]

On 3/26/2021 at 1:26 AM, Shagger said:

I feel a lot of haters of Bioshock Infinite don't like the game because they don't want to admit how the feel about the game's strong message regarding prejudice, race and discrimination. You know, the kind of people who always say "keep politics out of games" when most creative fiction of any medium that's worth a damb has social and/or political overtones. In other words, they're cowardly hypocrites unwilling to admit they're uncomfortable being confronted by these issues because deep down they know they're part of the very problem the game (or whatever media it is) is making a statement against. I will admit the message wasn't exactly subtlety presented, but it wasn't wrong and it made its point. 

 

I wouldn't know, but I've also heard it's a bit different from the other Bioshock games. In what way specifically, once again, I'm not the one to ask. 

You are retroactively straw-manning people. The keep politics out of games debate hasn't even started when Infinite came out. This is before even gamergate. And you are deliberately missing the point of it. When we say "Keep politics out of games" we don't mean keep political themes out of games, nobody wants that. That's a strawman argument, one that's getting very long in the tooth. What we want to be left out of games is political virtue signalling and references to current day politics. Like for example Mortal Kombat covering up women in the game for misguided political reasons, then not even having the balls to admit what they were doing. Or other games like Mass Effect Andromeda making every female character deliberately less attractive, even if it goes completely against established lore. And a lot of other games tried to de-feminize characters. It's as if feminism's greatest enemy now is femininity. It's utterly ridiculous and I want this campaign nowhere near my videogames.

As for infinite I didn't even remember the game had anything to say about race or prejudice. The ironic bit is that you talk about prejudice when you are the one being prejudiced by assuming that if someone doesn't like the game it must be because of politics. Which is exactly how games journalism tries to demonize the gaming community: You didn't like X game that had a reference to this hot issue! THEN YOU MUST BE A BIGOT! So in a way it is mandatory to love games that has any kind of remote reference to politics otherwise you are some kind of "-ist".  No wonder people want to keep politics out of games, when it is constantly being used to demonize them for not kowtowing to it. I don't want any political messaging in games, regardless of which side I fall on that particular debate.

[Crazycrab]

43 minutes ago, m76 said:

As for infinite I didn't even remember the game had anything to say about race or prejudice.

 

Then you clearly weren't paying any attention at all! It's literally one of the first things that happen and there's references to it all the time.

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Crazycrab

[Shagger]

1 hour ago, m76 said:

You are retroactively straw-manning people. The keep politics out of games debate hasn't even started when Infinite came out. This is before even gamergate. And you are deliberately missing the point of it. When we say "Keep politics out of games" we don't mean keep political themes out of games, nobody wants that. That's a strawman argument, one that's getting very long in the tooth. What we want to be left out of games is political virtue signalling and references to current day politics. Like for example Mortal Kombat covering up women in the game for misguided political reasons, then not even having the balls to admit what they were doing. Or other games like Mass Effect Andromeda making every female character deliberately less attractive, even if it goes completely against established lore. And a lot of other games tried to de-feminize characters. It's as if feminism's greatest enemy now is femininity. It's utterly ridiculous and I want this campaign nowhere near my videogames.

As for infinite I didn't even remember the game had anything to say about race or prejudice. The ironic bit is that you talk about prejudice when you are the one being prejudiced by assuming that if someone doesn't like the game it must be because of politics. Which is exactly how games journalism tries to demonize the gaming community: You didn't like X game that had a reference to this hot issue! THEN YOU MUST BE A BIGOT! So in a way it is mandatory to love games that has any kind of remote reference to politics otherwise you are some kind of "-ist".  No wonder people want to keep politics out of games, when it is constantly being used to demonize them for not kowtowing to it. I don't want any political messaging in games, regardless of which side I fall on that particular debate.

 

Interesting debate tactics. You're trying to disprove my point by going on about de-sexulisation and femistist issues in other games when that has absolutely nothing to with what I said. Do you have any idea what all this complaining about sightly less boobage in a video games makes you look like? You want boobies, there's no shortage of them on the Internet,. Nobody will judge you for "taking a break" for a few minutes from a game, or indeed this forum, to give your chap some attention. Maybe once you've done, you'll realise there's more to female characters than cup size, or at least their should be. 

 

Next, you can't possibly have played infanite without recognising one it's main themes, either that or you just choose to pretend it wasn't there. Either way, it's not possible that you could have played that game and missed the overtones on race and segregation, so I have little choice but to assume you're not telling truth for the sake of convince to your point. You seem to have spent most of you time on this addressing other games anyway, and that could be why. 

 

I also saw your previous post, what said about twists and storytelling is ludicrous;

 

"And the so called "clever twist" in the story is a lie, because the player character must have been aware of it before the reveal, only the player is kept in the dark, which is a big reverse 4th wall break. Any relevant knowledge of to the player character should be readily available to the player. I can accept it if it's only a small part of the story, or in games where there are multiple playable characters, but making the whole story hinge on on hiding a very important fact about the playable character is not clever, it's an insult.

And Bioshock Infinite does the exact same thing with the story. The whole premise hinges on the fact that the player is kept in the dark. Which is just lazy storytelling and infuriating when it is finally revealed."

 

Of course you're not supposed to be aware of a twist before it happens, otherwise it wouldn't be twist. Good storytelling is not about instructed on a story's exposition as soon and as often as possible like lecture, it's about establishing a character, setting them on their journey an learning more about them and their world through their journey. The frustration you described, whether you're aware of it or not, is frustration with yourself for not being figuring it out sooner and that's 100% on you. 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Shagger

[Empire]

It's not that people hate it, it's just that all the praise for the game drown out almost all of the criticism of the game. I think it's a thing that games will increasingly confront though, and that's the divide between games as a storytelling medium and games as an activity.

The combat in Bioshock was,  lame in my opinion anyway. The shooting was weak, it was extremely one dimensional, the powers were cool looking, but not really that interesting from a gameplay standpoint. It got to the point for me that the actual combat got in the way of the rest of the game. Most of it seemed like they were just looking for excuses to throw bodies at you in order to pad out the game's length with combat.

As a pure story it felt like parts of it were sacrificed for the gunplay. But as a pure gunplay game it felt like it was just half baked. It was beautifully crafted and had some great themes and a wonderful setting, but I personally felt it fell really flat.

[m76]

1 hour ago, Crazycrab said:

 

Then you clearly weren't paying any attention at all! It's literally one of the first things that happen and there's references to it all the time.

 

 

 

I said I didn't remember, not that it wasn't in it.  I played the game 8 years ago. And as you can see it is irrelevant to my criticism of the game. So, what is your point?

[m76]

1 hour ago, Shagger said:

 

Interesting debate tactics. You're trying to disprove my point by going on about de-sexulisation and femistist issues in other games when that has absolutely nothing to with what I said.

It was an example of using games as a political platform. Nothing else. I cited it as an example of what people who want no politics in games are complaining about. It's just the most obvious and widespread example.  You claimed that Bioshock Infinite is hated because of politics, my argument was that the bioshock infinite relased a while before politics even started to become an issue in games.

1 hour ago, Shagger said:

Do you have any idea what all this complaining about sightly less boobage in a video games makes you look like?

I'm aware of the fact that you and likeminded people want to paint me in a certain way, whether it is true or not. I just called out the hyporcisy of your prejudice, and here you are doing it again.

1 hour ago, Shagger said:

You want boobies, there's no shortage of them on the Internet,. Nobody will judge you for "taking a break" for a few minutes from a game, or indeed this forum, to give your chap some attention. Maybe once you've done, you'll realise there's more to female characters than cup size, or at least their should be.

You do realize that you are arguing against your own argument? Exactly, if I wanted "fap" material there is plenty of that nowadays on the internet, so why would I want that from games?  But clearly you are not thinking logically but emotionally. And attractiveness is not a function of cup size. Is this  another attempt at straw-manning, or a projection of your own repressed values?

1 hour ago, Shagger said:

Next, you can't possibly have played infanite without recognising one it's main themes, either that or you just choose to pretend it wasn't there. Either way, it's not possible that you could have played that game and missed the overtones on race and segregation, so I have little choice but to assume you're not telling truth for the sake of convince to your point. You seem to have spent most of you time on this addressing other games anyway, and that could be why. 

I said I didn't remember it, not that it wasn't in it. It's funny, you trying to prove that I hate a game over something I don't even remember being in it, or worthy of a mention in my original review of the game. (Yes I went back and read my own thoughts on the game)  It was probably not attempting to equate current day events with the racism in the game, otherwise I'd have taken note.

1 hour ago, Shagger said:

Of course you're not supposed to be aware of a twist before it happens, otherwise it wouldn't be twist. Good storytelling is not about instructed on a story's exposition as soon and as often as possible like lecture, it's about establishing a character, setting them on their journey an learning more about them and their world through their journey.

In other words you completely missed my point. Of course the twist would not be a twist if you were aware of it. My point was that the player character must be aware of it in both games, or at least have a very serious suspicion. Which is kept from the player completely.  The hero's journey only works if the audience is aware of it. If I'm kept completely in the dark, and it is revealed at the very end that all my actions during the game were completely futile I won't be impressed by the clever twist, I'll be annoyed. You know a red herring is only a red herring if it doesn't turn out to be true. For the entire game I thought them being the same person must be a red herring, because it would negate the whole journey.

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The frustration you described, whether you're aware of it or not, is frustration with yourself for not being figuring it out sooner and that's 100% on you. 

Oh so I'm either stupid or a bigot if I dislike the game, LOL Now that I read my own thoughts on the game I recall that my main issue with infinite wasn't that the twist was only revealed at the end, it is that it makes all my work and actions during the game meaningless. The story could've literally jumped from the first 10 minutes to the last 10 minutes, and it would've made absolutely no difference in the outcome.

[Shagger]

25 minutes ago, m76 said:

I said I didn't remember, not that it wasn't in it.  I played the game 8 years ago. And as you can see it is irrelevant to my criticism of the game. So, what is your point?

 

Either you know what you're talking about or you don't. At least be honest with yourself if you can't be honest in your posts. The kindest thing I can say is that your memory of the game is clearly patchy at best, so I would suggest you refresh your memory of the game otherwise it's difficult take your points seriously. 

[Shagger]

On 3/27/2021 at 2:52 PM, m76 said:

It was an example of using games as a political platform. Nothing else. I cited it as an example of what people who want no politics in games are complaining about. It's just the most obvious and widespread example.  You claimed that Bioshock Infinite is hated because of politics, my argument was that the bioshock infinite relased a while before politics even started to become an issue in games.

 

Did you even read that, especially that sentance, to yourself? Social/political themes were a part of video games for years before Bioshock Infinite came out. The Metal Gear Solid series, State of Emergency,  Final Fantasy (especially VII, X and XII) and I'd even include some of the earlier COD and GTA games in that to. Not to mention, of course, the very game this thread discussing. How on earth can you say that Bioshock Infinite, a game with blatant social/political overtones, came out before games had social/political overtones? That makes no sense whatsoever. I hate to be harsh, but either you are being very selectively hypocritical on what you consider to be a social/political theme, or you don't know know nearly as much about gaming, and the wider world, as you think you do.

 

You've made posts on this form before that have made me question your moral compass when it comes to the issue of race, and I considered them to be be coming from an ill informed place. Now though, given the blinkers you apparently wear to completely ignore this as even a theme in Bioshock Infinite, never mind a reflection of a real world issue, I'm not as sure now. 

 

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I'm aware of the fact that you and likeminded people want to paint me in a certain way, whether it is true or not. I just called out the hyporcisy of your prejudice, and here you are doing it again.

 

You do realize that you are arguing against your own argument? Exactly, if I wanted "fap" material there is plenty of that nowadays on the internet, so why would I want that from games?  But clearly you are not thinking logically but emotionally. And attractiveness is not a function of cup size. Is this  another attempt at straw-manning, or a projection of your own repressed values?

 

I'm not the one who stating ranting about desexulisation, censorship of female characters and feminism like some hormonally insane, teenage boy in topic that had nothing to do with them, that was all you. I was just pointing out how that's a bad look. 

 

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I said I didn't remember it, not that it wasn't in it. It's funny, you trying to prove that I hate a game over something I don't even remember being in it, or worthy of a mention in my original review of the game. (Yes I went back and read my own thoughts on the game)  It was probably not attempting to equate current day events with the racism in the game, otherwise I'd have taken note.

 

Like I said, It is impossible to play Bioshock Infinite and not notice this theme. Either you selectively ignored it, or you memories of the game are a very long way from complete and accurate. Either way, it doesn't exactly induce much credibility in your views on the game. That was before, though. You went back to a review you wrote on the game (any chance you could link that please?). So that just leaves "the blinker" as the last remaining possibility, and that's the far worse of the two. I don't think you realise how bad it looks failing to even recognise this in a review is for you.

 

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In other words you completely missed my point. Of course the twist would not be a twist if you were aware of it. My point was that the player character must be aware of it in both games, or at least have a very serious suspicion. Which is kept from the player completely.  The hero's journey only works if the audience is aware of it. If I'm kept completely in the dark, and it is revealed at the very end that all my actions during the game were completely futile I won't be impressed by the clever twist, I'll be annoyed. You know a red herring is only a red herring if it doesn't turn out to be true. For the entire game I thought them being the same person must be a red herring, because it would negate the whole journey.

 

I don't know if I'm really misreading what it is your trying to say, or if you're not expressing it very well, but it's not making much sense to me. You keep speaking as if good storytelling is only possible with the audience and characters being fully aware of what's really happening and that just isn't the case. The audience learns with the characters as they go through the journey, that's how we relate to them. Both the audience and the character won't be aware of all the facts, and may even be misinformed at points, up until a certain point, and all that is part of learning with the characters and relating with them. Wether or not the twist in Bioshock Infinite was a good twist or not is open for debate. Honestly, I didn't think that much of it either. To me, a good twist needs to;

1. Advance the plot instead of dragging it back. 
2. Follow the established rules set by the rest of the film/game or whatever. It can't just pull cryptic bullshit from out of nowhere, it has to make sense. 
3. Not be so vague that it allows almost any possibly. 
4. Teach us something about the plot and characters.
5. Everything mystery left hanging up until that point has to fall right into place. It needs to answer questions, not ask them.

 

Quote

Oh so I'm either stupid or a bigot if I dislike the game, LOL Now that I read my own thoughts on the game I recall that my main issue with infinite wasn't that the twist was only revealed at the end, it is that it makes all my work and actions during the game meaningless. The story could've literally jumped from the first 10 minutes to the last 10 minutes, and it would've made absolutely no difference in the outcome

 

You what, that I'll take back. Not enjoying or relating to the outcome of a story doesn't make you stupid, so I apologise for that insinuation. As for the bigot part (your word, not mine) , I feel like I said it already. I find it impossible to believe that that someone could play that game and not recognise that overtone unless, subconsciously or otherwise, they repressed and ignored it as an issue. You can read into that however you want, but I'll just say I think you have something to learn about the world. 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Shagger

[Reality vs Adventure]

Naturally, if someone felt threatened or offended by the game because of its message, then they aren't going to like it. Infinite isn't Wolfenstein, but it clearly lays out a cultish groundwork extremists follow and tries to demonize it. Having that utopia in the clouds, the symbolism was brilliant. There were some things in the story I didn't understand. It's one of those that probably needs more than one play through. 

Infinite was a unique game, but I actually liked the first Bioshock more because it was scarier especially the medical complex. I love that stuff. 

[StaceyPowers]

On 3/27/2021 at 4:09 AM, m76 said:

. Any relevant knowledge of to the player character should be readily available to the player.

I've only done one playthrough of Bioshock 1 so far. Was Jack aware of what was going on? I don't recall that.

Booker definitely had zero idea what was going on in Infinite. I mean, he probably started to suspect it (as the player might), but his memories were mangled going in.

[StaceyPowers]

On 3/27/2021 at 7:52 AM, m76 said:

The story could've literally jumped from the first 10 minutes to the last 10 minutes, and it would've made absolutely no difference in the outcome.

It had to be that way though. That was the whole point of the story. Booker and Elizabeth were eliminating the possibility of unwanted choices in the past so as to lock in the future they wanted. The game was about the true will of the characters, not the desires of the player. The game is to experience their journey, not control it.

Edited March 30, 2021 by StaceyPowers