Reality vs Adventure Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 Ummm, so how is that cancel culture philosophy going that republicans accuse democrats of? You lying republicans can all fuck off with your whitewashing in schools. And simply fuck off in life in general. The evidence is all in the bills. Talk and say what you want. THE EVIDENCE IS ALL IN THE BILLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blackangel Posted June 17, 2021 Share Posted June 17, 2021 FUCK THEM! I would teach it anyway. If I lost my lice4nse to teach, I would send an email to as many students as I could that I was still willing to teach them current events outside school on my own time if they wanted to attend a class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality vs Adventure Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 INDOCTRINATION is here from the republican party. Florida governor has now signed into law that colleges and universities have to survey students and faculty about beliefs. And depending on the results, the schools can be penalized and not receive funds. The surveys haven't been made yet, but I wonder what kind of questions will be asked, and if there will be a bias. This sort of thing is scary if you think about it. I believe surveys should be used to help what teachers can do better because in college we were able to survey our teachers at the end of the semester. But to survey our beliefs and the faculty beliefs by law is stepping on our rights. And to think your school can lose funding if whomever doesn't agree with the beliefs. Nazis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality vs Adventure Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 This is an interesting read about Florida's new law and 'red scare' tactic. https://www.yahoo.com/news/florida-guv-school-crackdown-red-221101542.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m76 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) On 6/16/2021 at 7:57 PM, Reality vs Adventure said: Ummm, so how is that cancel culture philosophy going that republicans accuse democrats of? You lying republicans can all fuck off with your whitewashing in schools. And simply fuck off in life in general. The evidence is all in the bills. Talk and say what you want. THE EVIDENCE IS ALL IN THE BILLS I'd like to read those proposed bills. Because I find it completely unfathomable what you say. A bill banning talking about historic racism? I don't believe that for a moment. Someone is twisting facts here. As for "current racism" by which I Assume you talk about systemic/institutional racism, I say good riddance. That's not fact, and schools should only teach facts, not opinions. Talk about indoctrination at a young age. Edited June 25, 2021 by m76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagger Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, m76 said: I'd like to read those proposed bills. Because I find it completely unfathomable what you say. A bill banning talking about historic racism? I don't believe that for a moment. Someone is twisting facts here. As for "current racism" by which I Assume you talk about systemic/institutional racism, I say good riddance. That's not fact, and schools should only teach facts, not opinions. Talk about indoctrination at a young age. If it is possible to actually read these bills online then I can't figure out how to to it. If anyone can, please post in the thread. However, there are articles about it. I have chosen a number of articles at random from a google search from various news sources. The Guardian Washington Post Sky News Insider Not that I think this will change anything. You still live in that little bubble were racism doesn't exist and wilfully ignore any evidence to the contrary. Reality vs Adventure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazycrab Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Shagger said: If it is possible to actually read these bills online then I can't figure out how to to it. If anyone can, please post in the thread. You can go onto Congress.gov, but their quite hard to find unless you know the bill number. The search tool is not the most intuitive I'm afraid. Edited June 25, 2021 by Crazycrab Reality vs Adventure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m76 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 13 minutes ago, Shagger said: If it is possible to actually read these bills online then I can't figure out how to to it. If anyone can, please post in the thread. However, there are articles about it. I have chosen a number of articles at random from a google search from various news sources. The Guardian Washington Post Sky News Insider Not that I think this will change anything. You still live in that little bubble were racism doesn't exist and wilfully ignore any evidence to the contrary. Critical race theory is not historic racism. I said there was twisting of facts here, and the very first article confirms my suspicion 100%. BTW that guardian article is not news reporting it is an asinine opinion piece. Imagine teaching something that is not based on reality but the perception of some racially (or otherwise) biased individuals, who judge people by superficialities and not their individual contributions to society. Teaching critical race theory equals to teaching religious beliefs as facts. Because critical race theory is only a belief nothing more. A belief that if there is no equity between races that must mean that there is discrimination, and even trying to look for other explanations for the lack of equity is racist. If we can't find any law that is actually discriminatory, then it must be the application of non-discriminatory law that is discriminatory! Everything, but the examination of individual responsibility. Accepting critical race theory equals accepting that people of different races cannot be treated as equals. Which is basically racism. And treating people from different races differently is unfair, that is why I'll never support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazycrab Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) I did manage to find one of them filed by Republican Representative Chip Roy of Texas. You can read it judge for yourselves. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3163/text?r=1&s=2 Edited June 25, 2021 by Crazycrab Reality vs Adventure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagger Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, m76 said: Critical race theory is not historic racism. I said there was twisting of facts here, and the very first article confirms my suspicion 100%. BTW that guardian article is not news reporting it is an asinine opinion piece. Like I said, I chose the articles at random for what I recognised as major news sources, I'm not in anyway responsible for what is contained therein. Nice side step on the other three, though. Why are you not mentioning those? 3 hours ago, m76 said: Imagine teaching something that is not based on reality but the perception of some racially (or otherwise) biased individuals, who judge people by superficialities and not their individual contributions to society. Teaching critical race theory equals to teaching religious beliefs as facts. Because critical race theory is only a belief nothing more. A belief that if there is no equity between races that must mean that there is discrimination, and even trying to look for other explanations for the lack of equity is racist. Systemic racism is a pretty much a proven fact at this point. It is real, and you never present any evidence to contrary, you just crawl back into your bubble and deny it. Still, it is still open to opinion, and so I must admit you have point there, but I still insist your wrong. Historic racism though, that CANNOT be denied. That is literally a proven fact. It's not a belief, it's not an opinion, so what's the problem with teaching it? It's not the same as teaching religious beliefs as facts, and from my experience being educated in catholic schools, that doesn't even happen anyway. My Religious Education teacher once said "Science is the study of how things happen, Religion is the study of why things happen", and that is an accurate description of my experience. 3 hours ago, m76 said: If we can't find any law that is actually discriminatory, then it must be the application of non-discriminatory law that is discriminatory! Everything, but the examination of individual responsibility. Accepting critical race theory equals accepting that people of different races cannot be treated as equals. Which is basically racism. And treating people from different races differently is unfair, that is why I'll never support it. You're still trying to paint people who stand up to racism as racists and it's still just as stupid as it was before. When are you going to learn that there is a difference between calling out racism as real and accepting racism as real? Calling racism out is not being content with it, it's exposing it so it can be fought. Saying racism is real is not what makes it exist, it exists because it exists. Living in a ignorant bubble and pretending it isn't there, much like you do, doesn't make it go away. On the contrary, it only allows the problem to get worse. That's why education is so vital when it comes to stamping out prejudice. You may not like the facts, but that won't change them. That's why when a mature, intelligent person is presented with these proven facts, what they do is accept that mistakes have been made, learn exactly that those mistakes are, then move forward with better knowledge to avoid repeating those mistakes. Societies are no different. We're not perfect and likely never will be, but that doesn't meant can't be better. What's holding us back is people like you. People who just profusely deny any mistakes or imperfections we have because you don't wanna live in a world where they are real. Well guess what, I don't wanna live in that world either. I think I speak for @The Blackangel, @Reality vs Adventure, @Crazycrab and others when I say we don't want to believe racism is real either. The difference is that we acknowledge it, and thus speak out against it so that we, as a society, can learn form it. Just like how those teachers and professors want to teach others so they can learn from it so we may avoid making the same mistakes. That's what makes these bills so wrong. The goal is perpetuate ignorance so racism can continue to exist just because certain people don't like the facts. You can use your twisted, deluded logic that make people who speak out against racism as the racists all you want, do what you need to do to feel better about yourself, but it won't change how you're perceived. Edited June 25, 2021 by Shagger Reality vs Adventure 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality vs Adventure Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 6 hours ago, m76 said: A bill banning talking about historic racism? I don't believe that for a moment. Someone is twisting facts here. History obviously can’t be changed, but textbooks can. So if history teachers are teaching something race related like the civil war, holocaust, civil rights era, just to name a few, and if they say something outside of text, they can lose their job. You tell me that isn’t indoctrination. The Texas revolution is a very good example how history is completely whitewashed. I had to learn about it when I moved to Texas. And books are very different to what actually happened. Texans completely demean Mexicans and paint them as savages and that Texans had to fight for independence as if they were subjugated in some way. But the reality is that before Texas became a state, it belonged to Mexico and more and more whites moved to Texas populating the territory and brought their slaves with them. Mexico didn’t allow slavery and had the right to defend their territory, long story short. So now, if a teacher said anything other than the false or biased claims in texts, they can be fired or fined. Along with the new bills, they are changing the curriculum to teach communism and totalitarian governments are evil. But the way I see it, if they call out one political belief, they need to mention all of them including fascism. Because from what we all remember is that it was under the fascists that committed the greatest evil. So why not directly call out fascism as evil? But focus instead on communism and socialism. And what does totalitarian governments entail? That’s what fascism is so call it out directly as they do communism. So you can see, probably not, that things like this gets ugly and our teachers shouldn’t have to be afraid of what to say because of republican indoctrination. I mean, why even have a teacher if you can’t say anything outside of text. Just give them a book to read. Teaching becomes redundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blackangel Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Shagger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m76 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 7 hours ago, Shagger said: Like I said, I chose the articles at random for what I recognised as major news sources, I'm not in anyway responsible for what is contained therein. Nice side step on the other three, though. Why are you not mentioning those? What sidestep? The content of the articles was not the topic, I asked citation for "banning the teaching and talk of historic racism" And since the first one provided the proof that I needed that this is not about historic racism, I felt no need to check out the other articles. But if you wish I can address them paragraph by paragraph, but why would you ask me to do that? 7 hours ago, Shagger said: Systemic racism is a pretty much a proven fact at this point. It is real, and you never present any evidence to contrary, That's exactly what the religious say about god. More and more parallels emerge with religion. I'm sorry but the burden of proof is on the CRT people (I hate that abbreviation because to me CRT means Cathode Ray Tube) And I've seen no definite proof of it. Lack of equity is not proof of discrimination, feminism proved that beyond any reasonable doubt. As it turns out women when given complete freedom to do whatever they want are even less inclined to go into positions and industries that are supposedly discriminatory towards females. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: you just crawl back into your bubble and deny it. And here we go again, with the ad hominems. It does not make your case stronger, au contraire. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: Still, it is still open to opinion, and so I must admit you have point there, but I still insist your wrong. Historic racism though, that CANNOT be denied. That is literally a proven fact. It's not a belief, it's not an opinion, so what's the problem with teaching it? I don't understand, you don't even seem to be addressing my words here. I said I'm fully for teaching historic racism, it would be a crime not to teach historic facts. But critical race theory is not a historic fact, it is a modern day misrepresentation and scapegoating of history for current day outcomes. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: It's not the same as teaching religious beliefs as facts, and from my experience being educated in catholic schools, that doesn't even happen anyway. My Religious Education teacher once said "Science is the study of how things happen, Religion is the study of why things happen", and that is an accurate description of my experience. I've heard about young earth creationism taught as a valid theory. I've seen many people who would want that to be taught as fact. Science has the answer for both the why and how, religion tries to give meaning and agency to nature, so individuals can feel more important. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: You're still trying to paint people who stand up to racism as racists and it's still just as stupid as it was before. I can't help you understand what I'm saying. People who think minorities will always come out as losers against white people unless the playing field is slanted in their favor are being racist. That's not my opinion, that is the definition of racism. Thinking minorities less capable of succeeding on their own merits, what would you call that if not racism? I see it is a superiority complex. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: When are you going to learn that there is a difference between calling out racism as real and accepting racism as real? I assume in order to call out racism you need to think it exists in the first place. It would be weird to call it out while not thinking it is real. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: Calling racism out is not being content with it, it's exposing it so it can be fought. Saying racism is real is not what makes it exist, it exists because it exists. It exists becauase it exists? Not a very compelling argument you have there. Look, I accept the fact that you are convinced that systemic racism exists. I'm trying to convince you that what you see is not actually a result of a mythical invisible racism, but a variety of social, economical, and cultural realities. The sooner you accept the real reason for disparity the sooner you can address the actual issues instead of searching for the boogeyman of racism hidden in non racist institutions and laws. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: Living in a ignorant bubble and pretending it isn't there, much like you do, doesn't make it go away. On the contrary, it only allows the problem to get worse. Exactly, pretending a mythical creature is keeping minorities down only allows the problems to get worse. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: That's why education is so vital when it comes to stamping out prejudice. You can't stamp out prejudice until the other issues are solved. If 90% of a certain group lives in ghettos assuming an individual from this group might be from a ghetto is not prejudice, it is survival instinct at work. You cannot eradicate people's survival instinct. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: You may not like the facts, but that won't change them. That's rich when you are defending the group who labels people as racists for mentioning certain facts. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: That's why when a mature, intelligent person is presented with these proven facts, what they do is accept that mistakes have been made, learn exactly that those mistakes are, then move forward with better knowledge to avoid repeating those mistakes. Societies are no different. We're not perfect and likely never will be, but that doesn't meant can't be better. You did not present any facts or mentioned any mistakes that we should be avoiding. I'm beginning to suspect you don't really now what's a fact. Thinking something exists doesn't make it a fact. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: What's holding us back is people like you. People who just profusely deny any mistakes or imperfections we have because you don't wanna live in a world where they are real. If it means preventing nonsense like critical race theory from becoming the norm, then I'm proud to be standing in the way. As soon as you mention any actual mistakes or imperfections that I'm guilty of I can address them, but so far you only present empty rhetoric. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: Well guess what, I don't wanna live in that world either. I think I speak for @The Blackangel, @Reality vs Adventure, @Crazycrab and others when I say we don't want to believe racism is real either. Nice pivot there from one thing to another. I'm fully aware that racism is real, I've seen racists and I'm constantly appalled by their behaviour and remarks. And I'd fight any actual racist individual to the bitter end. Systemic racism however is not real, anyone who signs up to it is doing a disservice to the communities they are purportedly trying to defend. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: The difference is that we acknowledge it, and thus speak out against it so that we, as a society, can learn form it. Just like how those teachers and professors want to teach others so they can learn from it so we may avoid making the same mistakes. That's what makes these bills so wrong. The goal is perpetuate ignorance so racism can continue to exist just because certain people don't like the facts. Critical race theory was born out of a refusal to acknowledge inconvenient facts and realities. So they created a bogeyman to lay all inequity at the feet of people who doesn't have a racist bone in them. 7 hours ago, Shagger said: You can use your twisted, deluded logic that make people who speak out against racism as the racists all you want, do what you need to do to feel better about yourself, but it won't change how you're perceived. I speak out against actual racism, and not throw around the world lightly to make it loose its meaning. If everything and everybody is racist, then nothing is. You are diluting the meaning of the word if you make everything racist by default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagger Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, m76 said: What sidestep? The content of the articles was not the topic, I asked citation for "banning the teaching and talk of historic racism" And since the first one provided the proof that I needed that this is not about historic racism, I felt no need to check out the other articles. But if you wish I can address them paragraph by paragraph, but why would you ask me to do that? That's exactly what the religious say about god. More and more parallels emerge with religion. I'm sorry but the burden of proof is on the CRT people (I hate that abbreviation because to me CRT means Cathode Ray Tube) And I've seen no definite proof of it. Lack of equity is not proof of discrimination, feminism proved that beyond any reasonable doubt. As it turns out women when given complete freedom to do whatever they want are even less inclined to go into positions and industries that are supposedly discriminatory towards females. And here we go again, with the ad hominems. It does not make your case stronger, au contraire. I don't understand, you don't even seem to be addressing my words here. I said I'm fully for teaching historic racism, it would be a crime not to teach historic facts. But critical race theory is not a historic fact, it is a modern day misrepresentation and scapegoating of history for current day outcomes. I've heard about young earth creationism taught as a valid theory. I've seen many people who would want that to be taught as fact. Science has the answer for both the why and how, religion tries to give meaning and agency to nature, so individuals can feel more important. I can't help you understand what I'm saying. People who think minorities will always come out as losers against white people unless the playing field is slanted in their favor are being racist. That's not my opinion, that is the definition of racism. Thinking minorities less capable of succeeding on their own merits, what would you call that if not racism? I see it is a superiority complex. I assume in order to call out racism you need to think it exists in the first place. It would be weird to call it out while not thinking it is real. It exists becauase it exists? Not a very compelling argument you have there. Look, I accept the fact that you are convinced that systemic racism exists. I'm trying to convince you that what you see is not actually a result of a mythical invisible racism, but a variety of social, economical, and cultural realities. The sooner you accept the real reason for disparity the sooner you can address the actual issues instead of searching for the boogeyman of racism hidden in non racist institutions and laws. Exactly, pretending a mythical creature is keeping minorities down only allows the problems to get worse. You can't stamp out prejudice until the other issues are solved. If 90% of a certain group lives in ghettos assuming an individual from this group might be from a ghetto is not prejudice, it is survival instinct at work. You cannot eradicate people's survival instinct. That's rich when you are defending the group who labels people as racists for mentioning certain facts. You did not present any facts or mentioned any mistakes that we should be avoiding. I'm beginning to suspect you don't really now what's a fact. Thinking something exists doesn't make it a fact. If it means preventing nonsense like critical race theory from becoming the norm, then I'm proud to be standing in the way. As soon as you mention any actual mistakes or imperfections that I'm guilty of I can address them, but so far you only present empty rhetoric. Nice pivot there from one thing to another. I'm fully aware that racism is real, I've seen racists and I'm constantly appalled by their behaviour and remarks. And I'd fight any actual racist individual to the bitter end. Systemic racism however is not real, anyone who signs up to it is doing a disservice to the communities they are purportedly trying to defend. Critical race theory was born out of a refusal to acknowledge inconvenient facts and realities. So they created a bogeyman to lay all inequity at the feet of people who doesn't have a racist bone in them. I speak out against actual racism, and not throw around the world lightly to make it loose its meaning. If everything and everybody is racist, then nothing is. You are diluting the meaning of the word if you make everything racist by default. These claims you make that people who call out racism are racist because, in your head, it means that those people "don't believe that minorities are capable" are unfounded and completely ridiculous. The only person who has ever implied such a possibility is you. It's YOU that putting that ridiculous theory out there. What you're basically saying is that all of us are racists except you, the one who referred to the BLM movement as looters and criminals, because we call out it out where it's engrained into society and institutionalised rather than on a personal more level. Racism isn't just calling a black guy you see see walking down the street a "ni**er" or a "monkey", it's more complex than that. But no, it's me and the others who post about this systemic, institutionalised racism are the racist because, again according to you, "we don't believe minorities can succeed in a fair world". As aforementioned, that claim is bullshit, but more to the point the racism were talking about does exist because this is NOT a fair world! It is not a world where minorities, woman, the LGBTQIA+ community, the disabled and so on are consistently given a fair chance and fair opportunities. To deny that is prejudice. An indirect form of prejudice, but prejudice none the less. The deniers, the hypocrites, the people that insist there's nothing wrong because they don't want to believe there is something wrong. Who does that remind you of? You never address any evidence put up by anyone, you just ignore it. Despite saying this this earlier in the thread; 12 hours ago, m76 said: I'd like to read those proposed bills. Because I find it completely unfathomable what you say. A bill banning talking about historic racism? I don't believe that for a moment. I bet you never read the link @Crazycrab provided, did you? 10 hours ago, Crazycrab said: I did manage to find one of them filed by Republican Representative Chip Roy of Texas. You can read it judge for yourselves. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3163/text?r=1&s=2 So how dare you imply imply those claims about us. You, of all people. Not once on this forum have you ever called out racism. Every time time the subject comes up, all you've ever done is deny it that even happens, including in this very thread. You deny it exists and you try to demonise people who speak out against it. And you know what, I'm getting a little tired of it. Edited June 25, 2021 by Shagger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality vs Adventure Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 39 minutes ago, m76 said: It exists becauase it exists? Not a very compelling argument you have there. Look, I accept the fact that you are convinced that systemic racism exists. I'm trying to convince you that what you see is not actually a result of a mythical invisible racism, but a variety of social, economical, and cultural realities. The sooner you accept the real reason for disparity the sooner you can address the actual issues instead of searching for the boogeyman of racism hidden in non racist institutions and laws. Those social and economic realities are a part of systemic racism. Gerrymandering is a big one and while both parties do it, republicans draw out county lines to deliberately leave out communities of color so that their votes are not represented by as many electoral college members, making their vote weaker. Their gerrymandering lines are literally zigzagging in some places to leave them out. Since democrats are more diverse and also have white voters, their gerrymandering lines are not as dramatic. Laws have been passed in some states to stop anyone who looks suspicious and check for their citizenship status or papers. That is blatant discrimination. Even some police departments meet a quota to single out and arrest blacks and Hispanics. More minorities go to jail and get longer prison sentences instead of a warning. The Jan 6 attack had it's first conviction and the person gets probation and no jail time. If they were black...you can imagine. They probably won't be alive. Protestors are treated very differently if they are black. A black undercover agent at a BLM protest was beat by cops and one cop was sentenced to jail and also tampered with evidence. Minorities are less likely to get loans for a house. Obama passed a nondiscriminatory law to help them get loans for homes and trump ended it. Black farmers barely got any government assistance during the pandemic and the failed China trade war. Biden has passed a bill to help the black farmers and even now the white farmers are suing and saying it is a racist bill. There have been at least 3 bailouts farmers have gotten now and black farmers barely got any help. I guess they should have sued trump for his racist policy. Education and healthcare also have systemic racism. Black schools are way underfunded and healthcare insurance goes up with minorities and treated differently. That whole system is pretty bad. Black communities even had to deal with toxic lead in their water while a white republican governor tried to cover it up. And don't tell me the same thing would happen if it was a white community. There is very little black or Hispanic representation in corporate boards. And since corporations lobby, then they are a political entity. Systemic racism is seen through so many areas of life. I grew up most of my life in white dominant areas and white schools. Even though I have some understanding now, I'm still ignorant to other aspects how systemic racism affects people of color. But this is something this country has to fight and I don't expect you to see it or care just like many people in this country. Information is there on the web if you want to do a bit of research and learn about these things. And at the hands of republicans things are getting worse. How bad do things have to get before everyone acknowledges the serious racist threat to democracy? Systemic racism has been bad before, but it's going to get worse. I wonder at what point you and others stop and realize your talking points are dangerous. Or maybe you already know. Shagger 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
