Getting thrown out of guilds in Oblivion adds realism

[StaceyPowers]

In Skyrim, you can join almost every guild/faction/etc., and nobody cares, even if they seem like they should conflict. But in Oblivion, you can get thrown out of factions in some situations. While that can be inconvenient, to me it makes the world feel more real, and makes choices in an open world environment feel more real as well. Thoughts?

 

[Withywarlock]

Spoilers for The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

While I agree that being removed from a guild for breaking rules is realistic, the requirements to re-enter are a mixed bag. I can't imagine being welcomed back into a Guild after murdering a guildmate in cold blood, which is apparently forgiven if you hand in 20 bear pelts or minotaur horns for the Fighters Guild, or 20 Daedra Hearts and Vampire Dust for the Mages' Guild. Not only are those requirements insane for someone who would need a guild for the training to slay the creatures necessary to harvest those parts, but one of them is going to be in scarce supply if the Oblivion crisis comes to a complete halt. The Thieves Guild has somewhat understandable rules given it's a rather dishonourable craft, which just requires you to pay a debt in gold (or items equalling the gold value of the debt) to get back in, though according to the above link there are some questionable gameplay mechanics surrounding expulsion. And finally, The Dark Brotherhood fittingly has an "eye for an eye" style of requirement to rejoin, demanding you slay 'the Wrath of Sithis' prior to the Purification questline. As per two of the three guilds mentioned before, it's two strikes and you're out.... and you have to slay the Wrath of Sithis again with 700HP. At least the Dark Brotherhood has a questline that makes a point of breaking the tenets, or rather, being immune to them. So if you've any pent up frustrations about being kicked out of a guild, take them out during the Purification.

Interestingly, the Guildmaster of the Fighters Guild and Archmage of the Arcane University can't lose their positions. I would've liked to have seen a questline wherein those who reach such positions can end up losing them in a trial by combat for the former, or a series of votes via the latter. Of course, those who desperately want the position can resort to dirty tricks, but the option to step down could also be a nice bit of roleplay for those who don't want to be the Master of All Trades the Champion of Cyrodiil ends up becoming.

I'll end by saying this: I also like that if you're inactive during your initiation, you can lose your membership and have to re-apply to become a member of the Mages and Fighters Guild. The only way you know this as far as I recall is by looking at your factions screen and no longer seeing your rank there. I do like, however much it aggrevated me at the time, that the Thieves' Guild gives you a time-sensitive initiation that can be cheated by pickpocketing one of the other thieves on their way back from the race!

OK, one final note: I've not played around with the guilds much in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, but from what I understand they were a lot more hardline about the relationships with guilds and punishment. IIRC one could not be in both the Fighters and Thieves Guild because they had quests against each other, and the Houses were at odds with one another. I'm not sure how the Morag Tong - state sanctioned assassins - did crime and punishment, but I imagine they had a one strike system, and the strike would've been planned barbarism.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Withywarlock

[killamch89]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:23 PM, Withywarlock said:

Spoilers for The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.

While I agree that being removed from a guild for breaking rules is realistic, the requirements to re-enter are a mixed bag. I can't imagine being welcomed back into a Guild after murdering a guildmate in cold blood, which is apparently forgiven if you hand in 20 bear pelts or minotaur horns for the Fighters Guild, or 20 Daedra Hearts and Vampire Dust for the Mages' Guild. Not only are those requirements insane for someone who would need a guild for the training to slay the creatures necessary to harvest those parts, but one of them is going to be in scarce supply if the Oblivion crisis comes to a complete halt. The Thieves Guild has somewhat understandable rules given it's a rather dishonourable craft, which just requires you to pay a debt in gold (or items equalling the gold value of the debt) to get back in, though according to the above link there are some questionable gameplay mechanics surrounding expulsion. And finally, The Dark Brotherhood fittingly has an "eye for an eye" style of requirement to rejoin, demanding you slay 'the Wrath of Sithis' prior to the Purification questline. As per two of the three guilds mentioned before, it's two strikes and you're out.... and you have to slay the Wrath of Sithis again with 700HP. At least the Dark Brotherhood has a questline that makes a point of breaking the tenets, or rather, being immune to them. So if you've any pent up frustrations about being kicked out of a guild, take them out during the Purification.

Interestingly, the Guildmaster of the Fighters Guild and Archmage of the Arcane University can't lose their positions. I would've liked to have seen a questline wherein those who reach such positions can end up losing them in a trial by combat for the former, or a series of votes via the latter. Of course, those who desperately want the position can resort to dirty tricks, but the option to step down could also be a nice bit of roleplay for those who don't want to be the Master of All Trades the Champion of Cyrodiil ends up becoming.

I'll end by saying this: I also like that if you're inactive during your initiation, you can lose your membership and have to re-apply to become a member of the Mages and Fighters Guild. The only way you know this as far as I recall is by looking at your factions screen and no longer seeing your rank there. I do like, however much it aggrevated me at the time, that the Thieves' Guild gives you a time-sensitive initiation that can be cheated by pickpocketing one of the other thieves on their way back from the race!

OK, one final note: I've not played around with the guilds much in The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, but from what I understand they were a lot more hardline about the relationships with guilds and punishment. IIRC one could not be in both the Fighters and Thieves Guild because they had quests against each other, and the Houses were at odds with one another. I'm not sure how the Morag Tong - state sanctioned assassins - did crime and punishment, but I imagine they had a one strike system, and the strike would've been planned barbarism.

I also would've liked to see the Archmage of the Arcane University get constantly challenged by other strong mages to prove their magical might and mastery. I'm fairly certain if that were the case, the Imperials would've been able to put up more of a fight against the Thalmor.

[Withywarlock]

6 hours ago, killamch89 said:

I also would've liked to see the Archmage of the Arcane University get constantly challenged by other strong mages to prove their magical might and mastery. I'm fairly certain if that were the case, the Imperials would've been able to put up more of a fight against the Thalmor.

That's fair. I imagine that would apply more to the Mages Guilds than the Arcane University, where the politicking seems to be far more prominent. But then maybe that's what led to their downfall: Archmage Traven's choice to chuck out the necromancers caused the cracks to appear, and maybe the Arcane University since went on to become about might being right, which left them vulnerable to the Thalmor's infiltration. Or maybe you're right, that by using the sword rather than the pen they might've dealt with the Thalmor. There's 200 years of speculation there, so we might both be right!

[killamch89]

16 hours ago, Withywarlock said:

That's fair. I imagine that would apply more to the Mages Guilds than the Arcane University, where the politicking seems to be far more prominent. But then maybe that's what led to their downfall: Archmage Traven's choice to chuck out the necromancers caused the cracks to appear, and maybe the Arcane University since went on to become about might being right, which left them vulnerable to the Thalmor's infiltration. Or maybe you're right, that by using the sword rather than the pen they might've dealt with the Thalmor. There's 200 years of speculation there, so we might both be right!

I can't quite remember but if I'm not mistaken, the new ESO DLC goes a bit more in-depth about this. Although I haven't played the game in years, when I did, I used to read the books in-game and it has aspects of the lore that none of the main games covered or overlooked.

[Heatman]

On 8/12/2021 at 7:12 PM, StaceyPowers said:

In Skyrim, you can join almost every guild/faction/etc., and nobody cares, even if they seem like they should conflict. But in Oblivion, you can get thrown out of factions in some situations. While that can be inconvenient, to me it makes the world feel more real, and makes choices in an open world environment feel more real as well. Thoughts?

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you commit something that is worth getting kicked out of factions in Oblivion, then you fully deserve it.