GTA The Trilogy "Definitive Edition". Em, no it isn't

[Patrik]

happens when Rockstar gives the work to beginner studios, happened with War Drums studio before and it's the same now with Grove Street Games lol

[Heatman]

1 minute ago, Patrik said:

happens when Rockstar gives the work to beginner studios, happened with War Drums studio before and it's the same now with Grove Street Games lol

It's really shocking that a video company as big as Rockstar will stoop too low to contract a cheap producing company studio to produce game for them and thereby mess up the whole game.

[Shagger]

8 hours ago, m76 said:

Criticism is not harassment. You release a shit product, that is basically a scam, and then get upset that people are bothering your emlpoyees? I know individual developers are not to blame, but really the fault lies with their management. If they had not put out utter garbage nobody would be bothering people who proudly wear their rockstar badge on their twitter account. If you want to take the praise when that's due, you also need to take the flak when your company messes up.

 

At what point did I indicate that people simply calling Rockstar out on this as harassment? Between me and Rockstar, we're not stupid enough to not be able to tell the difference. You know as well as I do that people have been actually harassing staff at Rockstar and/or Grove Street Games become someone always does. I don't understand why you always feel compelled to deny these things every time it comes up.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Shagger

[Heatman]

13 minutes ago, Shagger said:

 

At what point did I indicate that people simply calling Rockstar out on this as harassment? Between me and Rockstar, we're stupid enough to not be able to tell the difference. You know as well as I do that people have been actually harassing staff at Rockstar and/or Grove Street Games become someone always does. I don't understand why you always feel compelled to deny these things every time it comes up.

Here we go again 😂!!! I'm getting my seats to enjoy the show that's gonna start shortly 😊.

[m76]

7 hours ago, Crazycrab said:

Criticism is good, it's makes them aware the their customers are having issues with the product and helps to direct how it can be fixed.  Issuing death threat's, doxing or personal attacks is counter productive and completely unacceptable.

I'm not condoning death threats and other nasty things, I'm saying that nowadays criticism is often mischaracterised as harassment. And if you proudly wear the rockstar badge you need to take the criticism just as much as you take the praise when they do something good as a collective.

The nasty comments are usually a small fraction of it. And this is why they are doubly bad, because it gives the opportunity to trash companies like rockstar to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[m76]

4 hours ago, Shagger said:

 

At what point did I indicate that people simply calling Rockstar out on this as harassment? Between me and Rockstar, we're stupid enough to not be able to tell the difference. You know as well as I do that people have been actually harassing staff at Rockstar and/or Grove Street Games become someone always does. I don't understand why you always feel compelled to deny these things every time it comes up.

I was responding to their statement where they are calling to stop the harassment of their employees on twitter. And see my previous post for the rest. 

[Justin11]

Is rockstar harassing their employees? 

Why are they harassing their employees? 

Employees don't deserve any harassment, they deserve all the best treatment to work more efficiently. 

[Shagger]

1 hour ago, Justin11 said:

Is rockstar harassing their employees? 

Why are they harassing their employees? 

Employees don't deserve any harassment, they deserve all the best treatment to work more efficiently. 

 

No, it's members of the public harassing Rockstar's employees on social media and forums over the state of GTA The Trilogy The Definitive Edition. Calling the company out for the sorry state the game launched in is one thing, going the the profiles of individual employees of the company to issue threats and vile insults is another.

 

1 hour ago, m76 said:

I'm not condoning death threats and other nasty things, I'm saying that nowadays criticism is often mischaracterised as harassment. And if you proudly wear the rockstar badge you need to take the criticism just as much as you take the praise when they do something good as a collective.

The nasty comments are usually a small fraction of it. And this is why they are doubly bad, because it gives the opportunity to trash companies like rockstar to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

If you really condemn harassment of a game company's employees over situations like this, you would condemn it rather than just accuse Rockstar of hyperbole. You didn't do that. Instead, without any proof that Rockstar's claims are an exaggeration, you just dismissed the harassment as people criticising this bad launch. Frankly, that's a little worrying. Almost as worrying is the part I've highlighted as that literally is harassment what you describe. Going to an individual dev's twitter account to blame, piss and moan doesn't help. It's hardly likely that individual was in a position to cause this problem alone, nor are they alone in thier responsibility to fix it. At best, it's not at all helpful, but it's actually more like having a restaurant customer scream bloody murder at the server because thier steak was undercooked. It's just a loud, degrading spew of anger that's not even directed at the person responsible. Would you do that to you waiter/waitress? Probably not, so why is it OK to target individual dev's on social media in this situation?

 

Call out the company, make YouTube videos, post of forums and reddit and on company social media accounts, that's how it's done. Going to an individuals social media account to shoulder them with the blame and criticism just because they work there is unacceptable. That IS harassment. So in actual fact, whether you know it or not, you do condone harassment.

 

People who participate in or condone this kind of behaviour are big part of the problem. It makes game companies take the genuine criticism less seriously and divides thier attention in hinderance to addressing the issues that are brought up. You pretty said so yourself! So take a look yourself and what say and give it at least some thought before you post.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Shagger

[m76]

25 minutes ago, Shagger said:

If you really condemn harassment of a game company's employees over situations like this, you would condemn it rather than just accuse Rockstar of hyperbole. You didn't do that.

What? I literally just said in the very quote you are citing that I Do not condone actual harassment like death threats. I guess I really didn'T say I condemn it, but For crying out loud are you going to nitpick now on saying "not condone" instead of "condemn"?

25 minutes ago, Shagger said:

Instead, without any proof that Rockstar's claims are an exaggeration, you just dismissed the harassment as people criticising this bad launch.

Do you literally believe that all comments on social media were death threats instead of actual criticism? What do you expect me to do? Count al the tweets and do a tally of how much of it is criticism and how much empty harassment? That is literally impossible. I know it is hyperbole, because we have seen this before. The bad apples are not the majority, but that doesn't stop games media from painting the entire gaming community based on a single bad example.

25 minutes ago, Shagger said:

Frankly, that's a little worrying. Almost as worrying is the part I've highlighted as that literally is harassment what you describe. Going to an individual dev's twitter account to blame, piss and moan doesn't help. It's hardly likely that individual was in a position to cause this problem alone, nor are they alone in thier responsibility to fix it.

As far as I'm concerned if they put their workplace in their twitter bio, they instantly become representatives of the company. They can't then wash their hands of all things. So complaints aimed at them is fair play as long as it's not on their private accounts that has no affiliation with their workplace.

25 minutes ago, Shagger said:

Call out the company, make YouTube videos, post of forums and reddit and on company social media accounts, that's how it's done. Going to an individuals social media account to shoulder them with the blame and criticism just because they work there is unacceptable. That IS harassment. So in actual fact, whether you know it or not, you do condone harassment.

If I put "Designer at Rockstar North" in my twitter bio, then I make myself a representative of the company. I don't condone contacting employees who keep their twitter separate from their work. How would the players even find those bios, who don't have their work plastered all over it?

 

[Justin11]

54 minutes ago, Shagger said:

No, it's members of the public harassing Rockstar's employees on social media and forums over the state of GTA The Trilogy The Definitive Edition. Calling the company out for the sorry state the game launched in is one thing, going the the profiles of individual employees of the company to issue threats and vile insults is another.

Thanks for the clarification moderator. It's very absurd for the public to pour out their angers to the employees of rockstar. They are simply doing their best to deliver their job, they don't deserve any harsh treatment from those harassing them. 

[Shagger]

52 minutes ago, m76 said:

What? I literally just said in the very quote you are citing that I Do not condone actual harassment like death threats. I guess I really didn'T say I condemn it, but For crying out loud are you going to nitpick now on saying "not condone" instead of "condemn"?

 

You say you do not condole harassment, then in very next entrance describe going after individual employees on social media as acceptable instead of doing the right thing and calling out the company as a whole. Give as many coasts of paint you want make it look noble, but that is harassment. I explain the difference in the part of my post you, for some reason, left out of your quotes...

 

1 hour ago, Shagger said:

At best, it's not at all helpful, but it's actually more like having a restaurant customer scream bloody murder at the server because thier steak was undercooked. It's just a loud, degrading spew of anger that's not even directed at the person responsible. Would you do that to you waiter/waitress? Probably not, so why is it OK to target individual dev's on social media in this situation?

 

52 minutes ago, m76 said:

Do you literally believe that all comments on social media were death threats instead of actual criticism? What do you expect me to do? Count al the tweets and do a tally of how much of it is criticism and how much empty harassment? That is literally impossible. I know it is hyperbole, because we have seen this before. The bad apples are not the majority, but that doesn't stop games media from painting the entire gaming community based on a single bad example.

 

As far as I'm concerned if they put their workplace in their twitter bio, they instantly become representatives of the company. They can't then wash their hands of all things. So complaints aimed at them is fair play as long as it's not on their private accounts that has no affiliation with their workplace.

 

If I put "Designer at Rockstar North" in my twitter bio, then I make myself a representative of the company. I don't condone contacting employees who keep their twitter separate from their work. How would the players even find those bios, who don't have their work plastered all over it?

 

I believe that these individuals and companies get both healthy critisisum and unhelpful bile and anger. The clear difference between us, and what indeed does makes this debate very open in general, is how each person defines the difference between harassment and criticism. Making a YouTube reporting on the issue, that's criticism. Posting on forums describing what's going on, that's criticism. Complaining to persons representing that company who's job it is to collect feedback in respectful manner, that's also fine. Going to the personal social media account of some random "designer" to shoulder the blame on them is not cool, just like how it's not fair blame the waiter/waitress in my pervious example. But you seem to think it's OK to send these individuals all your bile and frustrated anger just because they list that they work at "Game Company X". Because guess what, it's very common for somebody to have "I Work at Game Company X" on thier personal twitter profile. A lot of people list thier place of work on social media profiles, whether it be in the game industry or not.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Shagger

[Crazycrab]

1 hour ago, m76 said:

As far as I'm concerned if they put their workplace in their twitter bio, they instantly become representatives of the company. They can't then wash their hands of all things. So complaints aimed at them is fair play as long as it's not on their private accounts that has no affiliation with their workplace.

 

Your only half right here.  The gaming industry is highly active on social media for promotional purposes. So individuals are encouraged and sometimes even required to create social media accounts that reflect or represent the companies they are working for.  That does NOT mean they have to bear the full responsibility of that companies action on their shoulders.  Especially since the sequence of events that lead to the kind of issues that we are seeing right now with the GTA Trilogy Definitive Edition are never down to the fault of one individual.

 

So you see, even if someone bears the Rockstar badge on their profile, even if they are the head of the company...  It... Is...  Not...  Their...  Fault.  It is always a series of failures and decisions from a multitude of people which may seem completely inconsequential to each other.  No individual deserves to be publicly crucified for this, and the fact you seem to think it's acceptable or at least "what they should expect" as along as they publicly announce on a social media profile that they work for then that is very disturbing Indeed.

[m76]

11 hours ago, Shagger said:

 

You say you do not condole harassment, then in very next entrance describe going after individual employees on social media as acceptable instead of doing the right thing and calling out the company as a whole. Give as many coasts of paint you want make it look noble, but that is harassment. I explain the difference in the part of my post you, for some reason, left out of your quotes...

And that was exactly what I meant originally: redefining criticism as harassment. You say people should not be able to contact employees of rockstar on twitter because it is harassment. I say if they proudly display their company affiliation on twitter, then they are acting as company representatives. And everything they do and say on twitter reflects on the company as much as them.

11 hours ago, Shagger said:

I believe that these individuals and companies get both healthy critisisum and unhelpful bile and anger. The clear difference between us, and what indeed does makes this debate very open in general, is how each person defines the difference between harassment and criticism. Making a YouTube reporting on the issue, that's criticism. Posting on forums describing what's going on, that's criticism. Complaining to persons representing that company who's job it is to collect feedback in respectful manner, that's also fine. Going to the personal social media account of some random "designer" to shoulder the blame on them is not cool, just like how it's not fair blame the waiter/waitress in my pervious example. But you seem to think it's OK to send these individuals all your bile and frustrated anger just because they list that they work at "Game Company X". Because guess what, it's very common for somebody to have "I Work at Game Company X" on thier personal twitter profile. A lot of people list thier place of work on social media profiles, whether it be in the game industry or not.

And as I Already stated: If you want to display your flags on your social media as a badge of honour, you must also shoulder the criticism. If I go into a shop wearing a shirt flying the shop's colors, I can reasonably expect people to think I'm representing the company, and I can't get upset when they dump their criticism at my feet. I can try to explain it to them that I'm acting as a private citizen and have nothing to do with company policy, but isn't it better, to not wear the company t-shirt in the first place?

Yes I know a lot of people put their workplace on their socila media, and quite frankly I think it is a questionable practice. Because from then on everything you say on social media is said as an employee of that company instead of a private citizen. I'd be extremely weary to even mention my place of work on social media, because I don't want my work to scrutinize what I say on social.

[m76]

10 hours ago, Crazycrab said:

Your only half right here.  The gaming industry is highly active on social media for promotional purposes. So individuals are encouraged and sometimes even required to create social media accounts that reflect or represent the companies they are working for.  That does NOT mean they have to bear the full responsibility of that companies action on their shoulders.  Especially since the sequence of events that lead to the kind of issues that we are seeing right now with the GTA Trilogy Definitive Edition are never down to the fault of one individual.

Can you show an example? Which company requires employees to brand their social media account? I've never heard this happen. If anything companies should be encouraging against this as they don't want to be dragged into the thick of it when someone says something stupid on social media. Of course they don't bear full responsibility for the company's actions. They are just an arm of the company.

10 hours ago, Crazycrab said:

So you see, even if someone bears the Rockstar badge on their profile, even if they are the head of the company...  It... Is...  Not...  Their...  Fault.  It is always a series of failures and decisions from a multitude of people which may seem completely inconsequential to each other.  No individual deserves to be publicly crucified for this, and the fact you seem to think it's acceptable or at least "what they should expect" as along as they publicly announce on a social media profile that they work for then that is very disturbing Indeed.

Sadly the only way disgruntled fans can make themselves heard these days is if they overwhelm the company with complaints, it's out of desperation, not malice. So again the fault is with the company, who'd try to silence complaints. And that is why I get upset when they start talking review bombing and harassment campaign. No, there are no avenues left for players to complain so they do it the only way they can: By leaving negative reviews or contacting affiliated social media accounts. So in the end it is the company's fault on all levels.

[Shagger]

6 hours ago, m76 said:

And that was exactly what I meant originally: redefining criticism as harassment. You say people should not be able to contact employees of rockstar on twitter because it is harassment. I say if they proudly display their company affiliation on twitter, then they are acting as company representatives. And everything they do and say on twitter reflects on the company as much as them.

And as I Already stated: If you want to display your flags on your social media as a badge of honour, you must also shoulder the criticism. If I go into a shop wearing a shirt flying the shop's colors, I can reasonably expect people to think I'm representing the company, and I can't get upset when they dump their criticism at my feet. I can try to explain it to them that I'm acting as a private citizen and have nothing to do with company policy, but isn't it better, to not wear the company t-shirt in the first place?

Yes I know a lot of people put their workplace on their socila media, and quite frankly I think it is a questionable practice. Because from then on everything you say on social media is said as an employee of that company instead of a private citizen. I'd be extremely weary to even mention my place of work on social media, because I don't want my work to scrutinize what I say on social.

 

Think of it this way. Let's say Boeing come out with a band new passenger airliner and that airliner has a crash because of some design flaw. What you're saying is that it's OK to "go after" the guy who's job it was to secure the planes toilet just because he listed himself as an employee of Boeing on social media. That it's fair to blame that one flight attendant that just happened to survive the crash and went to social media to alert people to what had happened because she works for the airline . That the PR representatives for the airline and Boeing deserve to get threatened and harassed by an angry public even though they had nothing to do with what caused the accident. I don't know what it is you think you look like when you say stupid shit like this, but let me assure it's not good.