Morality and how it relates to abortion

[Techno]

I was pondering during the thanksgiving weekend about morality and how people have different ideas of it. I want to see how people intercept morality when it comes to abortion. I don't a debate on if we should do it, but how people view it morality wise. Please keep it respectful, I'm not looking for a fight. 

[Crazycrab]

I'm 100% pro choice.  It's not right for me or anybody else to tell someone that they have to follow through with a pregnancy if they don't want to.  To be frank it's pretty disgusting that there are people that genuinely believe that they have the right to deny somone that choice.  Even in the case of sexual assault or a medical complication like an ectopic pregnancy which would not only kill the fetus anyway but could kill the would have been mother as well.

 

Outside of medical intervention, the only person that should decide whether an abortion is the right course of action or not is the one that's pregnant.  End of story.

[Shagger]

It's kinda difficult for anyone to attack you before you have even stated how you feel on it. None the less, you are right. Let's keep it civil, everyone.

 

On topic and for me it's very simple. Nobody has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body and women should have the right to do what is in the best interest for he physical and mental well being. It's in the best interests of everyone involved if, buy the would be parent(s) own admission, that they are not in a favourable situation to have a child at that time. If you are in that situation and are having sex, use contraception, you should never be in a situation where an abortion is something to consider, but things happen, so that option should be there.

 

My biggest problem with the anti-abortion (and it is that, the "pro-life" tag is bullshit) ideology is that none of thier arguments really make sense. A fetus doesn't have feelings, senses and certainly not thought or anything resembling sentient behaviour until months into the pregnancy possibly after birth depending on what specifics you wanna bring up. These idiots hide behind the Bible in much the same way a lot of homophobes do, but that is a valid excuse for nothing. You want religious beliefs to dictate your actions, then fine, nobody's holding that against you, but that does not give you the the right to decide the fate of other people. The worst part is there sheer refusal to comprise on this. Irresponsible people who just didn't bother to use protection ( another thing religion seems to have a problem with) is one thing, but why deny this to rape victims? Why deny it to woman who, for one reason or another, pregnancy and/or childbirth would be particularly dangerous from a medical standpoint? No, they have to go through it all because God said so. It's bullshit.

[Techno]

Honestly, I don't think either side is fully correct, we don't really know when life begins, we can only guess based n what we know, are braindead people more alive than fetuses? Are they both in a state in-between life and death?  Problem is: Nature is far too complicated for us to really decide where life begins. I don't like taking away people's rights, but I don't like the idea of deciding someone's else's fate either. Life is far too complex for us to really understand, and another problem I have is: Who decides what is life? Is it more personnel than scientific? Who decided what? Who gets to deciare life, the in-between, and death? 

[The Blackangel]

The third tenet of The Satanic Temple says

One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone.

I wasn't going to get involved with this discussion initially, but decided I had to. From a woman's standpoint, it's no one's business what I choose to do with my body. If I want a tattoo or piercing, that isn't your business. If I choose pads over tampons, that is none of your business. If I choose an abortion over carrying a child, that is none of your business. No one has the right or privilege to tell me what I can and cannot do with my own body. The only time someone has that option is when they are the parent of a young child. Other than that, you have the right to your opinion. If you feel that it's wrong, fine. If you have no problem with it, fine. But mind your own damn business. You don't want to make it mine.

[Reality vs Adventure]

The way I see it, is that you can’t pick and choose what life you want to be moral about. Those who want to ban abortions also has the tendency to not respect the environment and not respect health protocols during a pandemic in the country where I’m at. A person simply cannot be pro-life for a fetus/embryo and not for every other aspect of pro-life. I understand why they want to ban abortions, because every fetus/embryo has the potential to become a human. The fetus/embryo has the ‘potential’ for the higher consciousness that humans possess. Does that consciousness grant us the right to determine the population of wild animals? Decide what animals to take off an endangered list or reduce it’s population because they are a burden to us?

What about the parent’s situation that may actually cause harm to the child if its born? Would it be morally right to raise the child in a broken home or toxic environment which could give them a lifetime of pain and suffering? In this case of whether determining the morality of abortion, does the ‘potential' of a fetus/embryo outweigh the ‘reality’ of a dangerous living environment?  An abortion should be a choice. Would you eat eggs that has the possibility of being fertilized if hens and roosters all grazed together in a natural habitat? Would you give your dog an abortion if you couldn’t handle an unwanted litter? Would you force a person raped to have a child? Would you let the law determine a person’s risk of life if they were to have labor?

Is a fetus/embryo more important than an animal hunted for sport? Pro life should equal all life. So banning abortions isn’t a morality issue when those that want to ban it are far from being pro life. If vegetarians and environmentalists and human rights activists wanted to ban abortions, then I would say that makes more sense than those currently claiming pro life.

The abortion itself should be up to the parents depending on their living situation and health. If parents have the right to spank their children or discipline them how they want and make their health decisions, then they also should have the right to decide whether or not to bring one into the world. And I don’t hear anyone complain about China’s one child law. And to even consider imprisoning an innocent mother for aborting a fetus/embryo is completely insane. You might as well start burying females alive for losing their virginity like Romans did to the vestal virgins, or imprison them and starve them to death. This is why church and state should be separated and abortions is clearly a religious issue.

And the same people who want to ban abortions, in my country, are gun rights activists and stand your ground activists. And these politicians that are against abortions love the death penalty and even recently made the firing squad legal in some states in the USA. The hypocrisy runs deep when it comes to abortions. And I simply can’t stress the point enough that if a fetus/embryo has the right to life, then all other animals have the right to life. Point in conclusion is that banning abortions is a religious issue getting mixed up in government. And if you bring the issue to the seat of lawmaking, then you MUST protect all animal rights/environmental rights/and human rights. So banning abortions is complete hypocrisy to those who claim pro life. That is the truth of it that even God would agree. Those who do actually respect all life and support leaders who respect all life, then I respect you. If a leader wanted to ban abortions with the exception of rape and health issues; as well as protect animals, human rights, and the environment, then I would reconsider my opinion on banning abortions. Until then, it is a religious hypocritical doctrine inside the government.

 

[The Blackangel]

Has anyone ever noticed that the people picketing places like Planned Parenthood are people you wouldn't want to fuck in the first place?

[Techno]

2 minutes ago, The Blackangel said:

Has anyone ever noticed that the people picketing places like Planned Parenthood are people you wouldn't want to fuck in the first place?

Yes, my best theory is that they have nothing else to do. We have hobbies, and hobbies keep us distracted from doing things, they do not, they go though Twitter, and Twitter is not a good place to be when your bored. That is why they head to Planned Parenthood, because in all irony, those people never seen to plan well.

[m76]

I don't see a morality issue with abortion, because I don't think a fetus is a person. What makes someone an individual worth protecting is the life experiences they accumulated. And nobody starts accumulating life experience until after they are born.

Nobody should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against their will.

Those who want to ban abortions often say well they should've been more responsible and use protection. But that argument falls apart, because had they used protection that fetus wouldn't exist in the first place. So they are not advocating for life, they are just advocating for squashing it sooner.

[kingpotato]

Okay so unpopular opinion here.

First of all I agree with @The Blackangel "No one has the right or privilege to tell a woman what they can and cannot do with their own body" men have zero saying on abortion laws.
There should be a law that allows women to get an abortion if them deem it neccesary. 

Also just in case I want to be clear im pro abortion if the reason is because of rape or any type of medical danger to the health of the mother or if the fetus is diagnosed with any type of severe malformation. Growing up disabled is horrible and some people have it worst than others.

Regardless of what my opinion is Im not going to protest on the street against abortion like an idiot because I cant get pregnant therefore I have no saying on the subject.

Now back to unpopular comment xD

Through my life I was taught that we have to take responsability for our actions, if we didnt want to have the responsability of a baby we had to practice safe sex or in my dad's own words "chop your balls off" (he meant vasectomy but till this day I dont think he knows how it works)

So taking responasibilty for a pregnancy is what I think is correct and not just brush it off simply because you can have an abortion. Not that people actually take abortions like it was getting a hair, that doesnt actually happen, some may be pro abortion and never go through an abortion during their life time.

Now Im going contradict my previus comment xD

In the words of George Carlin "Conservatives will throw themselves at the fire for an unborn baby, but after the baby its born they dont want to know about it" I dont know if thats the actual quote thats just the way I remember it. What this means is that there are millions of children in poverty or born under horrible circumstances, and people dont care about them, not just the goverment. They go full battle mode against abortion but if the baby is born under a difficult situation like disability, poverty or violence they will not care and will blame it on something else, rather than approve an abortion law that could have prevent the child to be born under those circumstances.

Anyway long stort short, abortion, I personaly dont like it but its something that is needed in our society , its a right and its a women decision, and if we want to avoid an abortion or a pregancy to happen the best way to do it is by teaching our kids values rather than making it illegal. 



 

[Jayson]

The unborn baby under pro-choice rules only has rights if the mom gives it rights.  That makes it a slave or the worst sort. I mean, I'm talking life or death.  Anyway, though, once the baby is born, suddenly, it has full rights, and the mom, and rightly so, is held under harsh scrutiny over anything she does.

Well, think about it.  I suppose in a pro-choice favored area, someone could hit a pregnant woman and she could choose or not choose to press charges and, of course, she can abort the baby.  What a contrast that is to after the baby is born.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Jayson

[The Blackangel]

10 hours ago, Jayson said:

The unborn baby under pro-choice rules only has rights if the mom gives it rights.  That makes it a slave or the worst sort. I mean, I'm talking life or death.  Anyway, though, once the baby is born, suddenly, it has full rights, and the mom, and rightly so, is held under harsh scrutiny over anything she does.

Well, think about it.  I suppose in a pro-choice favored area, someone could hit a pregnant woman and she could choose or not choose to press charges and, of course, she can abort the baby.  What a contrast that is to after the baby is born.

By that logic, not allowing your child to go outside to play is also slavery of the worst sort. A parent setting rules for their child is slavery of the worst sort.

 

I want a LOT of the parents here to weigh in on this. @Shagger what do you think? I highly doubt it but, is your son a slave?

Edited February 20, 2022 by The Blackangel

[Shagger]

35 minutes ago, The Blackangel said:

By that logic, not allowing your child to go outside to play is also slavery of the worst sort. A parent setting rules for their child is slavery of the worst sort.

 

I want a LOT of the parents here to weigh in on this. @Shagger what do you think? I highly doubt it but, is your son a slave?

 

A slave is someone robbed of thier own free will, so a fetus and even a baby up until a certain age lacks the ability to enforce, develop and express such a will and are totally dependence on others for care and survival, so I don't feel that child under a certain age can really be enslaved under my definition. So, with all due respect @Jayson, you're being ridiculous. Even when a child is old enough to have thier own will than can be taken from them comparing a parent's discipline and guidance to slavery is a stretch to say the least. That's not denying someone thier right of will and independent thought.

[Jayson]

2 hours ago, The Blackangel said:

By that logic, not allowing your child to go outside to play is also slavery of the worst sort. A parent setting rules for their child is slavery of the worst sort.

 

I want a LOT of the parents here to weigh in on this. @Shagger what do you think? I highly doubt it but, is your son a slave?

An unborn child whose "life" is dependent on the mom, as in she can take it deliberately with no legal consequences, isn't no different than Roman slaves who could be legally killed by their master.  The unborn kid, again, is at the mercy of the mom - who allows the kid to live like someone who doesn't squash a bug out of kindness.  See how this is just morally terrible?

[Crazycrab]

13 hours ago, Jayson said:

The unborn baby under pro-choice rules only has rights if the mom gives it rights.  That makes it a slave or the worst sort. I mean, I'm talking life or death.  Anyway, though, once the baby is born, suddenly, it has full rights, and the mom, and rightly so, is held under harsh scrutiny over anything she does.

 

Well for starters the window where a fetus can be aborted ends at 24 weeks, LONG before the baby is actually born.  So I'm a little confused as to exactly when in your mind this transition period between the fetus having rights and having none actually should be.

 

Secondly this comparison between a fetus and a slave is ludicrous, I personally don't recall any instance of a fetus being forced into the fields to their masters damn cotton.

 

I usually try to see both sides of the argument but Abortion is an exception.  The so called "pro life" is stance is a load of dated, hypocritical bullshit.  The people that argue against abortion also argue the use contraception is a sin for fucks sake!  The one thing I would agree with is that there are options that are arguably better in most circumstances.  like giving the child up for adoption to an infertile or same sex couple that can't conceive naturally.... but oh yeah.... THEY THINK HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN TOO!

 

Like @kingpotato said earlier they will defend to the the death the rights of a non-sentient fetus but don't give a fraction of shit about the rights of the one that's pregnant with it.  Instead they slut shame and insult them for having sex out of wedlock an not using the contraception their against.  They don't make any exception for victims of rape either and Christian hospitals will even refuse to abort even in cases of Ectopic Pregnancies where the fetus cannot survive and the patient's life is in immediate jeapordy.  So much for fucking "pro-life"!

 

Even if we were to accept the rights and life of the fetus why do they override the rights and life of the mother that actually has feelings?  It's still a hypocritical and disgusting point of view and I make no apologies for calling it out for what it is.