Do you think games are too woke?

[Kane99]

Do you guys think games are becoming too woke? 

I honestly have no issue with serious issues and problems being brought up in games, movies, tv. I think it can kinda be preachy at time, but i think that's just the time we're in. What do you think?

[Techno]

It really depends, I don't mind when it's new characters. But when they change a characters appearance or preferences, it's really disingenuous, it's like saying: "We don't have faith that new characters can sell well, that's why we should make blank gay, or blank black".

[m76]

First we need to define what is woke, because a lot of people are not clear on that.

Some regularly misconstrue being progressive and open minded, with being woke.
And thus we see statements like "Star Trek has always been woke" which is blatantly false.
Star Trek was progressive, as it would include ideas, themes and representation that was not common at the time.

It showed what a post scarcity and prejudice society looked like. It was up to the audience to understand and draw their own conclusions based on what they saw.
And thus people loved it, because it showed a better and hopeful future where there was no class system in place. They achieved equality and everyone loved that idea as the future of humanity in 200-300 years.

Wokism on the other hand advocates for class separation and insists that certain classes of people must be treated differently. It preaches that everything is racist and sexist, and the only way to be fair is to recognise that everything is racist and sexist. And thus you must be actively racist and sexist to offset the pre-existing racism and sexism. It shows no hope, as it is a never ending proposition, it implies that a post prejudice world where everybody is treated as equals is impossible.

So what woke ideology does is make sure that every position of power is occupied by someone belonging to an in their mind disenfranchised group regardless of whether that position is earned or not. But it's not enough to just put token characters in positions of power, they need to "deconstruct" the past as well, they need to drag previously established heroes through the mud and make them look weak and reduced to babbling imbeciles. (Ex: Luke Skywalker in Last Jedi, or Picard in the titular Star Trek show)

And the typical woke person will say that I just have a problem with POC being in a positions of power, when I only have a problem with people that did not earn their position, regardless of their group identities. So yes I have a problem with Michael Burnam in Star Trek Discovery, but I never had a  problem with Benjamin Sisko in Star Trek Deep Space Nine.

An example for a woke game would be X-COM Chimera Squad, that displays every conceivable illness associated with woke ideology. It does not present an ideal future it presents a bleak horrid world (just like star trek discovery) and it makes statements like for example: "women are better warriors than men", instead of presenting a woman who is a great warrior who earned that title, they declare that women are better in a blanket statement.

Another bad example is Far Cry 6, where the supposed good guys are all unlikeable annoying college students, who have egos bigger than the villain of the game but it is never shown what that is based on. And these 'goodguys' are aggressive and revel in violence, so just like the typical woke activist, who would happily employ violence against political dissenters if they could get away with it.

Representation and progressivism in games is great, as long as it is not the end goal of the game, and story and world building comes first.

Woke games are not made by people who have a passion for games, they are made by people who don't care what they are doing as long as they can insert their message in it. Just as current day Star Trek is not made by people with a passion for the material, but by people who are  either indifferent or outright hostile to the existing fanbase of 40 years of star trek.

 

 

[Shagger]

46 minutes ago, m76 said:

First we need to define what is woke...

 

You know what, I'm gonna stop you right there. Whatever it is you were about to say it needs stated that you are the LAST person on this forum who's opinion on this subject matter needs heeded. Your sexisum, racism, misogyny and even a kind homophobia that even you yourself isn't fully aware of makes anything you say on this topic pure poison.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Shagger

[Crazycrab]

31 minutes ago, m76 said:

guff

 

16 minutes ago, Shagger said:

guff

 

Ok, time to either lock the topic or....

 

[Shagger]

15 minutes ago, Crazycrab said:

 

 

Ok, time to either lock the topic or....

 

 

I'm sorry to disappoint you or anybody else, but I don't care enough to argue with him. I don't even care enough to even read whatever he had to say. However, he has already proven on numerous occasions that when it come to the subjects of social politics and prejudice he is 100% convinced that his perspective, as dark, archaic and twisted as it is, is somehow righteous. It doesn't make sense and, quite frankly, it's probably bad for one's metal health to even try to make sense of it anyway. It's like trying to understand why Adolf Hitler referred to his flagship The Bismarck as a "He" instead on the more traditional "She", it's just easer to take the reality as it is rather than suffer the effort to figure it out. So fuck it. Any form of moderation required on this thread, I'll leave in the very capable hands of @The Blackangel and @DC. It's better for both myself and VGR if I just ignored it.

[Shagger]

In response to the actual topic, there is only one difference between a game that's "woke" and a game that's "offensive", and it's not even in the game itself, but in the person observing it. They're both needlessly offended in a way that a civilised, sensible person wouldn't be observing the same thing, It's just as stupid for someone to be offended by a female character being needlessly sexualised as somebody being offended, and offended is the right word, by the same character now wearing jeans instead of skin tight short shorts.

 

I've been playing a game called The Vagrant on steam (I'm tempted to do a "Shagger Says" on this game when I'm done) and it's from a publisher that's known for catering to a, well, let's say "I'm not crying, but still need an ample supply of tissues" demographic. And yes, the protagonist looks lie she just walked of the set of "Lord of the G-Srings" or some shit. However, the game itself, that I only bought to use up leftover funds from my Steam wallet, is superb! A dark, gothic side scrolling JRPG in the art style of some Vanillaware games like Odin's Sphere. It's brilliant and I honestly don't think anyone's Steam library is right without it. The story is fantastic and really engaging, the gameplay is satisfying, it is gorgeous and at $4 it is the bargain of the century. The main character may be drawn like she belongs in a god damb hentai, but that is the last reason anyone should choose to buy or not buy this game. However, there will be people who will do one thing or the other and it is not fair on the game. So because of that, I would say they would have been better of designing the main character in a way that was more, let's say, subtle. Does that mean I'm offended by the way she looks? No. If I was, I wouldn't have tried the game to begin with. Did the way she looked persuade me to buy the game? Again, no. Like it or not, when you swim through the bargin basement on Steam, the kindest thing I can say is that it's an ocean of lowest common denominator mucus, so even The Vagrant actually stands out as something to take at least a little bit more seriously. Like I said, I might do a full boar full roar "Shagger Say's" on the game, but TL;DR is, it's $4, buy it, I promise you won't regret it.

 

I used "the Vagrant" as an example of how I'm a rational person and how I hoped everyone would view a game like that. I understand why some people would attack the game over the design of the main character and I would too if the game used that as crutch because it had no other way to stand on it's own, but that just isn't the case. There will be people who will defend the game from such attacks because "complaining about it makes you woke", and to me that's at least just as stupid.

 

Don't jump on hate trains or bandwagons, don't stand up for any cause other than your own and what you truly believe in, and if you do, make it about something that actually matters.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Shagger

[Crazycrab]

1 hour ago, Shagger said:

It's like trying to understand why Adolf Hitler referred to his flagship The Bismarck as a "He" instead on the more traditional "She", it's just easer to take the reality as it is rather than suffer the effort to figure it out.

 

It was named directly after formar Prussian and German politician Otto Von Bismarck.  There, explained.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Crazycrab

[Shagger]

Just now, Crazycrab said:

 

It was named directly after formar Prussian and German politician Otto Von Bismarck.  There, explained.

 

His sister ship, and it was a sister, was named after Alfred Peter Friedrich von Tirpitz, a German Grand Admiral. He was man. So you see, it still makes no sense.

[Reality vs Adventure]

4 hours ago, m76 said:

And these 'goodguys' are aggressive and revel in violence, so just like the typical woke activist, who would happily employ violence against political dissenters if they could get away with it.

You just opened a can of political bullshit. I can give you many examples where it was the far right extremists that has used the most violence against protestors and political dissenters. I'd like to debate you the acts of violence you claim woke has done and what the far right has done. If you don't want to debate that then this statement you posted should be disregarded and trashed as bullshit. 

 

[Crazycrab]

45 minutes ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

You just opened a can of political bullshit. I can give you many examples where it was the far right extremists that has used the most violence against protestors and political dissenters. I'd like to debate you the acts of violence you claim woke has done and what the far right has done. If you don't want to debate that then this statement you posted should be disregarded and trashed as bullshit. 

 

 

Honestly that's going to go nowhere.  If I googled "violent left wing extremists" what do think I'm going to find?  Examples of left wing people doing violent things.  Similarly if I did a search for "violent right wing extremists" what going to come up?  It's obvious your only going to find results that match your search and it doesn't give the whole picture either way.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Crazycrab

[Darth]

This is not aimed at you @Kane99 because I know you included it to discuss it. But anytime anyone uses the word "woke" to describe some media or a game, it's because they don't like that a character is white. Apparently anytime you have a game based around a woman or a POC, you are being woke and pandering to certain people. Unbelievable really.

[Boblee]

8 hours ago, Shagger said:

 

You know what, I'm gonna stop you right there. Whatever it is you were about to say it needs stated that you are the LAST person on this forum who's opinion on this subject matter needs heeded. Your sexisum, racism, misogyny and even a kind homophobia that even you yourself isn't fully aware of makes anything you say on this topic pure poison.

I was actually expecting that counter from you to him 😂. 

It's just like you both can't see eye to eye on any controversial subjects because this has been a pattern for a long time now. 

 

🚶. 

[Crazycrab]

7 hours ago, Shagger said:

 

His sister ship, and it was a sister, was named after Alfred Peter Friedrich von Tirpitz, a German Grand Admiral. He was man. So you see, it still makes no sense.

 

The actual reason why ships in maritime tradition are referred to as "she" isn't all that clear or rational in the first place.  Some say it's a reference to the idea of goddesses and mother figures playing a protective role.  There was (and to some degree still is) a lot of superstition when it comes to ships and sailing.

 

All I know is the case of Bismarck they decided to make an exception.  It was a tribute to arguably the most powerful man in Europe in second half of the 19th century and they thought that "she" wouldn't have been appropriate.  It was also reported that the captain believed that since the ship had such massive biceps and solid steel pecks that it should be a "he"... Ok those probably weren't his literal words but you get the idea.

 

As to why the Tirpitz was still referred to as "she" and other ships from other countries (at least to my knowledge) never made the same exception even when the name is in reference to a male figure?  I DON'T KNOW, why do they have genders in the first place?  You seem to be looking for some logical explanation for choosing one pronoun over the other  in this situation when their is no logical reason to use either of them!  It's like shining a torch on a black hole and expecting to see what it looks like.

 

To sum up, you posted the question...

 

7 hours ago, Crazycrab said:

why Adolf Hitler referred to his flagship The Bismarck as a "He" instead on the more traditional "She"

 

...as if there was no answer or at least not one that was attainable, but their is.  The answer is contradictory and doesn't make much sense BUT there is an answer.  It was a terrible example that doesn't drive the point you were trying to make at all.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Crazycrab

[The Blackangel]

I think another reason a lot of ships were always referred to as “she” is because 1000, 1500, 2000 years ago almost all nations were under the rule of some form of a monarchy. It was a reference to their queen being considered the owner of the ships they sailed on.