Transgender swimmer Lia Thomas wins 1st place in women’s 500-yard NCAA title

[The Blackangel]

4 minutes ago, Jayson said:

A situation like this isn't fair because obviously the athlete is more powerful due to the fact she hasn't been transformed enough into a female.

And you know this how? Have you been monitoring their medications? Did you monitor them about taking hormone blockers prior to puberty and hormone replacements prior to puberty?

And while we're on the subject of females being weaker than men, I have only one word for you:
Chyna

[Crazycrab]

1 hour ago, The Blackangel said:

And while we're on the subject of females being weaker than men, I have only one word for you:
Chyna

 

 

Yep.... Definitely not going to argue with that!

[The Blackangel]

I remember watching her. And during her tenure as a WWE superstar, I don't remember her fighting even one of the WWE Divas. She fought the men. And kicked some serious ass doing it.

I also remember her first Playboy spread, and a guy referring to her as a "linebacker with tits". That was one of the most misogynistic comments I had ever heard.

 

If she was still alive, I would dare any man to try to take her on. And I would film the whole thing and put it straight up on YouTube.

"Guy gets his ass kicked by a girl part 1"

Edited March 29, 2022 by The Blackangel

[Crazycrab]

1 hour ago, Jayson said:

A situation like this isn't fair because obviously the athlete is more powerful due to the fact she hasn't been transformed enough into a female.

 

With all due respect, I don't think you know enough about how far through her transition she is to make that claim.

[Crazycrab]

30 minutes ago, The Blackangel said:

I remember watching her. And during her tenure as a WWE superstar, I don't remember her fighting even one of the WWE Divas. She fought the men. And kicked some serious ass doing it.

I also remember her first Playboy spread, and a guy referring to her as a "linebacker with tits". That was one of the most misogynistic comments I had ever heard.

 

If she was still alive, I would dare any man to try to take her on. And I would film the whole thing and put it straight up on YouTube.

"Guy gets his ass kicked by a girl part 1"

 

I remember some of her matches.  She was the Woman's Champion and I think Intercontinental Champion at one point as well.

 

I think WWE should do more intergender stuff.  There is definitely some women on current roster that are capable.  I don't want drive this off topic though.

[kingpotato]

2 hours ago, Shagger said:

 

You clearly didn't bother to read the rest of the thread, so why should anyone care what you have to say?

I will agree with him this time. For this case specifically I dont think it was fair. 

Based on the comments that @Crazycrab made "if a sporting body decides impose any restrictions on Trans people competing then that decision has to be based on verifiable scientific evidence and not opinion."

I dont know anything about hormone transformation or anything related to it to be honest so I will base my comments as to what I know, and I will try to focus my comments on this case specifically since as to what I understand every case can be different.

Lets look at what we know about this case, Lia Thomas was already a male swimmer before her transformation, at this point she was already a pro athlete and had been training for years as a man and had been gaining muscle experience for all those years. She started her hormone treatment around  2 years ago, I dont think those years were enough to make up for all the advantage she had gained prior her transformation. Again I dont know how this works and I dont know what kind of treatment she went under. So based on the information I think that even after her transition she still had the physical advantage over the other participants.

Now I do want to make this clear, Im not againts trans people participating in sports but there has to be some rules or better yet some regulations , like for example how long ago was the transition prior to the event and what kind of treatment or process it was, I dont think that just checking for hormone levels prior to the event is enough, there should be more types of test and restriccions. I dont know if there were any in this event and I dont know what kind.

But with just the information that I have seen so far I do believe that Lia Thomas was very well aware that she had the upper hand in the competition because of her physiology. Honestly just because someone is trans doesnt mean they will not cheat, trans persons are people like anybody else and all people can be dishonest.

Anyway once again I do need the feel to repeat myself. I could be wrong, Im basing this comment on facts that I have seen and read not opinion , Im not generalizing since all cases can be different,  but I do think this was not fair, same goes for the wrestling case that I mentioned before.

[kingpotato]

2 hours ago, Crazycrab said:

 

With all due respect, I don't think you know enough about how far through her transition she is to make that claim.

Neither do we honestly, I dont know what kinda of transtition or treatment she went under and was that treatment or process enough to make the competition fair ?

 

3 hours ago, The Blackangel said:

And you know this how? Have you been monitoring their medications? Did you monitor them about taking hormone blockers prior to puberty and hormone replacements prior to puberty?

And while we're on the subject of females being weaker than men, I have only one word for you:
Chyna

Wasnt she suspected of using steroids ? and didnt she died from an overdose ? 

If we are going to use an example of a strong woman we should look up to wolrd record weightlifter Laura Phelps
 

[Shagger]

6 minutes ago, kingpotato said:

I will agree with him this time. For this case specifically I dont think it was fair. 

Based on the comments that @Crazycrab made "if a sporting body decides impose any restrictions on Trans people competing then that decision has to be based on verifiable scientific evidence and not opinion."

I dont know anything about hormone transformation or anything related to it to be honest so I will base my comments as to what I know, and I will try to focus my comments on this case specifically since as to what I understand every case can be different.

Lets look at what we know about this case, Lia Thomas was already a male swimmer before her transformation, at this point she was already a pro athlete and had been training for years as a man and had been gaining muscle experience for all those years. She started her hormone treatment around  2 years ago, I dont think those years were enough to make up for all the advantage she had gained prior her transformation. Again I dont know how this works and I dont know what kind of treatment she went under. So based on the information I think that even after her transition she still had the physical advantage over the other participants.

Now I do want to make this clear, Im not againts trans people participating in sports but there has to be some rules or better yet some regulations , like for example how long ago was the transition prior to the event and what kind of treatment or process it was, I dont think that just checking for hormone levels prior to the event is enough, there should be more types of test and restriccions. I dont know if there were any in this event and I dont know what kind.

But with just the information that I have seen so far I do believe that Lia Thomas was very well aware that she had the upper hand in the competition because of her physiology. Honestly just because someone is trans doesnt mean they will not cheat, trans persons are people like anybody else and all people can be dishonest.

Anyway once again I do need the feel to repeat myself. I could be wrong, Im basing this comment on facts that I have seen and read not opinion , Im not generalizing since all cases can be different,  but I do think this was not fair, same goes for the wrestling case that I mentioned before.

 

The only person in this thread that has presented any kind of scientific evidence on this to his high credit is @Crazycrab and based on what he's posted, @Jayson can't simply say it's wrong with a single sentence not referencing anything. Not to mention that he has been one of the most poisonous, insulting deflecting and arrogant individuals when it comes to debate this this that we have ever had. When somebody makes a point he can't challenge, he ignores then opens a new thread on the same thing and makes the same points again hoping that nobody will remember what asked before. But of course, everybody does because we're not stupid.

 

So no, he cannot post a single, dismissive, arrogant sentence in the face of somebody like @Crazycrab who obviously spent a considerable amount of time researching and developing his point of view and expect to be treated the same, that just isn't how this works. He can't do what always does and just ignore and disrespect others views and keep ducking everyone like he's the only that can be right. At least you have the common curiously to acknowledge that you don't know everything you need to understand full how transitioning works, but at least you clearly know something about the actual subject matter, and I commend you for that. Even as a mod, it's part of my job to defend his right to express himself, but he has showed that to precisely nobody unless they agree with him without question. It is also my right to allow everyone around him the same right to express themselves, so I hop you can imagine just how badly this guy has damaged my patience.

 

5 minutes ago, kingpotato said:

Wasnt she suspected of using steroids ? and didnt she died from an overdose ? 

 

An overdose was cited as probable cause, but never fully  proven. What is known is that it wasn't steroids, it was prescription drugs.

[Crazycrab]

24 minutes ago, kingpotato said:

Neither do we honestly, I don't know what kinda of transition or treatment she went under and was that treatment or process enough to make the competition fair ?

 

I don't claim to know for sure myself.  What has been proven is that when transitioning from male to female through hormone treatments estrogen goes up and testosterone goes down.  This does effect performance, even if there is no other physical change to the body.  Wether that change is significant enough to neutralise any advantage the athlete might have had before is what's up for debate.  Right now we don't have enough data to draw any definite answers.

 

24 minutes ago, kingpotato said:

Wasn't she suspected of using steroids ? and didn't she died from an overdose ? 

 

Well it seems steroid use was pretty common in pro wrestling back then, I think way more than the people running WWE, WCW and so on would ever admit.

[Reality vs Adventure]

49 minutes ago, Crazycrab said:

I don't claim to know for sure myself.  What has been proven is that when transitioning from male to female through hormone treatments estrogen goes up and testosterone goes down.  This does effect performance, even if there is no other physical change to the body.  Wether that change is significant enough to neutralise any advantage the athlete might have had before is what's up for debate.  Right now we don't have enough data to draw any definite answers.

I had to read up a bit on this topic to see what exactly what the controversy is. And I completely agree with you that we don't have enough data to draw definite answers. The controversy is whether or not a transgender can compete in one year of treatment or in 2-3 years from the start of treatment depending on how much strength is retained. And since everyone is different and it might be different for each sport, more research needs to be done. Some research says that 12% of strength is retained after one and possibly even two years of treatment. And again we need more research on it because it's not like athletes stop training while going through therapy. They exercise and build muscle. So that's why I say each sport should be researched and maybe even have different standards for each sport. So who knows, maybe the requirements will change to 2 or 3 years. Either way, we should respect any and all winners of competition because strength is nothing without endurance. Swimming requires a lot of endurance as well as technique.

Remember the video I posted about arm wrestling? How the little guy beats everyone else no matter how big and strong they are??? Yep, it's technique.  

[Knight Barida]

On 3/29/2022 at 1:52 PM, Jayson said:

A situation like this isn't fair because obviously the athlete is more powerful due to the fact she hasn't been transformed enough into a female.

 The problem here is that we can't say when the transformation is complete since they have already cleared the lady (the guy) to compete in the competition. Whatever outrage anyone is having is not justified, if you ask me.

[Reality vs Adventure]

Well, turns out that republicans have now introduced a bill to honor 2nd place winner Emma Weyant instead of Lia Thomas. 

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/lauren-boebert-declares-runner-up-to-transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-rightful-winner

You can see their resolution from the above link trying to honor Weyant as the rightful winner. I hope that Emma Weyant stands up against this sort of thing and honors her second place. I wonder what she would say. This is ugly politics gone too far and displays republican hate towards LGBTQ. 

U.S. representative Lauren Boebert's own words " Emma Weyant wast the fastest woman competing in the 2022 NCAA Division Women's 500-yard Freestyle, but her first place win was stolen by a mediocre man who couldn't cut it in men's swimming." 

 

[The Blackangel]

Several things have been suggested in relation to transgender people in sports. Some have suggested weight classes like they do in wrestling. For example, if she weighs 130 pounds, then the cis gendered women should have to weigh the same. Some say that would solve the issue, others not so much. There have been thousands of things proposed, none of them viable. In my opinion, it all boils down to discrimination more than anything. But that's another topic for another thread.

[Reality vs Adventure]

1 hour ago, The Blackangel said:

Several things have been suggested in relation to transgender people in sports. Some have suggested weight classes like they do in wrestling. For example, if she weighs 130 pounds, then the cis gendered women should have to weigh the same. Some say that would solve the issue, others not so much. There have been thousands of things proposed, none of them viable. In my opinion, it all boils down to discrimination more than anything. But that's another topic for another thread.

I think that topic should be discussed maybe on another thread because LGBTQ is also being targeted in grade schools and republicans are making bills to prevent people under 18 from getting gender affirming care which they claim protects them, but instead it's to prevent them from participating in sports. This goes back to what @Crazycrab was saying about all the psychological issues they have to go through including suicide, so to block gender affirming care in youth, and then want to block them in adulthood from playing sports is simply a discrimination issue. 

[egghead]

How do you decide in which category a transgender should be playing. Its this about biology or about how they identify with a particular gender?