Is there any such thing as "overhyped" or "overrated" video games?

[Grungie]

11 minutes ago, Akun said:

But I think JRPG fans have already expected that kind of pattern, especially where the Persona and SMT games are concerned. Persona games have stopped overhauling their gameplay mechanics since P3, and SMT did the same with Nocturne, so I think pretty much most people who bought Persona and SMT games weren't really expecting some fantastic overhaul, the same way they didn't expect Soul Hackers 2 to have some revolutionary mechanic either because that's not what Atlus does anymore. I guess the timing of its release might have played a part, but when I ask myself what Persona and SMT fans would really expect with each new Megaten game nowadays, I really doubt a brand new sparkling gameplay mechanic would be it. I still feel like the story and characters are the main crux of what separates a game like Persona 5 from SMT V in terms of popularity and sales numbers. Guess which one did better? The one with the better story and characters, Persona 5. SMT V infamously failed because its characters were shallow and its plot meandered to nowhere, unlike the more consistent and solid writing of Persona 5.

I’m talking about the general public, not the fans. As a fan of a franchise, you already know what to expect, but when that one entry magically gets popular, it definitely feels completely random. It’s not like that entry usually does anything different, it’s just the one that got popular. Usually based on release timing, or for it being on a different console.

So when I find that franchise entry that’s “randomly” popular, I tend to see a reoccurring theme, and it rarely has anything to do with the actual game.

[Akun]

17 minutes ago, Grungie said:

I’m talking about the general public, not the fans. As a fan of a franchise, you already know what to expect, but when that one entry magically gets popular, it definitely feels completely random. It’s not like that entry usually does anything different, it’s just the one that got popular. Usually based on release timing, or for it being on a different console.

So when I find that franchise entry that’s “randomly” popular, I tend to see a reoccurring theme, and it rarely has anything to do with the actual game.

Yeah, but the fans are part of the general public...? I mean, sure, there were non-Persona fans who bought the game, but it feels kinda weird to try and examine the non-Persona fans' input for how well a Persona game does when it's the latest of a long-running franchise that existed since the '90s, long before the Persona spin-offs even existed. It didn't "randomly" become popular; it became popular because the fans liked it and supported it.

It's like saying a Pokémon game became randomly popular in contrast to similar monster-taming games; Pokémon games have a fanbase behind it that made them popular and continuing to support that bloated franchise despite its often lack of innovation and originality.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Akun

[killamch89]

On 8/5/2022 at 4:50 AM, Justin11 said:

- COD vanguard

- GTA trilogy 

- BioShock infinite 

- All FIFA series games 

This games I mentioned are overrated, their prices are way too higher than what they offered to gamers in terms of satisfaction. 

 

Add the 2k games and Battlefield to that list as well.

[Grungie]

2 minutes ago, Akun said:

Yeah, but the fans are part of the general public...? I mean, sure, there were non-Persona fans who bought the game, but it feels kinda weird to try and examine the non-Persona fans' input for how well a Persona game does when it's the latest of a long-running franchise that existed since the '90s, long before the Persona spin-offs even existed. It didn't "randomly" become popular; it became popular because the fans liked it and supported it.

Well how do you explain other franchises that have that one hit wonder game to fall back into general obscurity?

It only feels weird for you when you’re already a fan. As a fan, some of these “one hit wonder” entries definitely feel super random. That’s why you have to look outside of the fandom, because what was so special about that entry that got other people only interested in that one entry and not another one?

[Akun]

3 minutes ago, Grungie said:

Well how do you explain other franchises that have that one hit wonder game to fall back into general obscurity?

It only feels weird for you when you’re already a fan. As a fan, some of these “one hit wonder” entries definitely feel super random. That’s why you have to look outside of the fandom, because what was so special about that entry that got other people only interested in that one entry and not another one?

Whoa, not so fast. Persona 4 is easily getting a lot of traction these days after the recent announcement that Persona 4 is getting ported to the PC, so clearly, there's still a lot of people out there craving for Persona 4 (not that I could relate... at all...), meaning that Persona 5 was anything but a one-hit wonder.

That being said, I do get what you're trying to say. I was just saying that Persona 5 wasn't the one-hit wonder you made it out to be. I don't think Persona 4 really tanked in sales numbers? At least I didn't hear anything like that. And the number of Persona 4 fans that are still around craving for that P4 port makes me think that they have always been around in large numbers, just never being vocal about it. And that's the thing: just because a fanbase isn't vocal about a game doesn't mean it doesn't exist nor does it mean there's no one interested in Persona 4 - a lot of people still are, and they're looking forward to the P4 port.

[Grungie]

Just now, Akun said:

Whoa, not so fast. Persona 4 is easily getting a lot of traction these days after the recent announcement that Persona 4 is getting ported to the PC, so clearly, there's still a lot of people out there craving for Persona 4 (not that I could relate... at all...), meaning that Persona 5 was anything but a one-hit wonder.

That being said, I do get what you're trying to say. I was just saying that Persona 5 wasn't the one-hit wonder you made it out to be. I don't think Persona 4 really tanked in sales numbers? At least I didn't hear anything like that. And the number of Persona 4 fans that are still around craving for that P4 port makes me think that they have always been around in large numbers, just never being vocal about it. And that's the thing: just because a fanbase isn't vocal about a game doesn't mean it doesn't exist nor does it mean there's no one interested in Persona 4 - a lot of people still are, and they're looking forward to the P4 port.

Persona 4’s been out on Steam for like 2 years. It didn’t “tank”, but you can see that Persona 5 eclipses it by a significant amount. Also a massive amount of people only care about P5, and have no interest in P3 or 4. Even telling the P5 fans to play P4, they have zero interest. Persona 4 was a borderline cult classic. It got some initial traction on the PC port, but simmered out pretty quickly.

Let’s be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised when P6 comes out, and also doesn’t really do much different from P5, and doesn’t do nearly as well, as non-Persona fans will expect some kind of drastic upgrades, and be disappointed. It’s happened a ton in other JRPG franchises.

[Akun]

12 minutes ago, Grungie said:

Persona 4’s been out on Steam for like 2 years. It didn’t “tank”, but you can see that Persona 5 eclipses it by a significant amount. Also a massive amount of people only care about P5, and have no interest in P3 or 4. Even telling the P5 fans to play P4, they have zero interest. Persona 4 was a borderline cult classic. It got some initial traction on the PC port, but simmered out pretty quickly.

I feel like that's pretty subjective to which forum or social media you follow though. I'd need to see some hard evidence, like statistical charts mapping out the amount of chatter or something to be convinced. lol Because really, whether a game is talked about often enough in circles you're familiar with is just as subjective as whether a game is overrated or underrated, suitably bringing the discussion back full circle.

I guess the sales numbers could be enough evidence, but I don't know. I feel like that only tells me whom owns a PS Vita and PS2, and then a PC, not how many people cared about Persona 4. By the time Persona 5 got released, I'm pretty sure quite a lot of people have already owned a PS4 - it certainly isn't as obscure as a Vita that nobody asked for.

But regardless, this is why I find discussions about whether a game is overrated or not kinda dumb. No offense. Because look at us arguing, and you trying to convince me, a nobody unrelated to you, that the game was overrated. It's like... okay? You might be right, but so what? Just pay money to support underrated games. Whether a game is overrated or not is determined by sales numbers, meaning people actually went out of their way to vote with their wallet, people like you, so complaining about other people's votes is just kinda ridiculous when you have the same freedom to vote for the next Persona game with your purchase.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Akun

[Grungie]

2 hours ago, Akun said:

I feel like that's pretty subjective to which forum or social media you follow though. I'd need to see some hard evidence, like statistical charts mapping out the amount of chatter or something to be convinced. lol Because really, whether a game is talked about often enough in circles you're familiar with is just as subjective as whether a game is overrated or underrated, suitably bringing the discussion back full circle.

I guess the sales numbers could be enough evidence, but I don't know. I feel like that only tells me whom owns a PS Vita and PS2, and then a PC, not how many people cared about Persona 4. By the time Persona 5 got released, I'm pretty sure quite a lot of people have already owned a PS4 - it certainly isn't as obscure as a Vita that nobody asked for.

You can look at sales figures for the games (they're not hard to find). You can clearly see the large jump between P4 and 5, but the changes in the game weren't significant enough to warrant a gigantic increase in sales. You're even acknowledging that it being on the PS4 was a boost to its sales figures, which was part of my point.

You can see analogues in other JRPG franchises, that one "random" entry that has a significant amount of sales and award nominations, but doesn't do anything significantly different from other entries. There wasn't anything drastic that made it more appealing to people outside the fandom. A lot of it is marketing, and being on the right console at the right time. You'd be surprised at how much of a difference being on a different console actually boosts sales. Tales of Symphonia is a great example of this, it's no secret to Tales fans that it being on the Gamecube was the reason why it stands out.

Let's just say hypothetically Pokemon was a niche franchise, but out of nowhere, X/Y blows up in popularity, then simmers afterwards. We're not even going to change the gameplay or anything. So as a fan who got into Pokemon later being confused at why X/Y was so massive, but the franchise popularity/sales figures drop.

[Akun]

7 hours ago, Grungie said:

You're even acknowledging that it being on the PS4 was a boost to its sales figures, which was part of my point.

I feel like we're talking about the same thing without acknowledging that the other party is correct. 😆 Persona 4's sales numbers on the PC didn't do as well as Persona 5 because it's a PC port, not a new game like Persona 5, so it's obvious that people who've already played P4 on the PS2 or the Vita wouldn't bother buying it on the PC. I didn't even know it got ported to the PC until you told me, which is how little interest I have in a game I've already played ages ago. The disparity in sales numbers between Persona 4 and 5 isn't really that shocking because Persona 4 was split between THREE different consoles, meaning you have to literally accumulate the sales numbers of ALL three consoles to even make an accurate observation - and even then, it wouldn't be a 100% accurate reflection of how people felt over the span of the release of those three consoles either. People's interests would dwindle over the course of three console releases. It happens. Persona 5, on the other hand, had the fortunate opportunity of being released on the PS4, so the fact isn't that people didn't care about Persona 4 as much as Persona 5, but more that people didn't have the opportunity to care about it in terms of "sales numbers" because they might not have owned a PS2/Vita/PC at the time of its release. In other words, it's not a fair comparison, at all. It's like comparing the PC version of Halo: Master Chief Collection's sales numbers compared with each individual game's original XBox releases.

Again, I feel like we're talking about the same thing here, especially since I was going to point out that the rise in popularity in anime and JRPGs have indeed given Persona 5 the advantage as well, much like you yourself have pointed out.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Akun

[Yaramaki]

I feel like the problem persona 4 had, well apart from steam is that it was always released on platforms that were pretty much dead in the water. It came out on the ps2 in late 2008 in america, even spring 2009 in europe, at a time when pretty much everyone moved on to newer consoles. Same deal with the ps vita, while i won't deny the vita was probably the best platform persona 4 golden could get a release the harsh truth was who the fuck owned a ps vita, the best thing about the psvita was imo the people who had one loved the machine to death and pretty bought anything they could get their hands on, while it does not say much persona 4 golden is one of the best selling titles on the platform considering it sold 2.5 million units on a the vita alone and If vita hardware sales are to be believed around 10 million that is quite impressive for a series to is supposed to be niche. For the general public it's good to see persona 3 and 4 being re-released because these games have become quite collectible over the years.

You know this makes me wonder is Persona the more populair series now as it would be interesting to compare in a few years how many units Shin Megami Tensei V or the recent released soul hackers 2 sold. 

But man i would not call any Atlus or Persona game released overhyped, Atlus has been bringing out exellent games for as far as i can remember, imo their games deserve all the attention because nearly all are their games are worthy of your hard earned cash, the only problem is having the spare time to play them all. 

Anyways maybe i'm not adding anything new to the table but lot's of shin megami tensei and persona talk lately and you know i can dig that. 

Btw if you want to have a good read that covers the entire SMT series and all it's spin offs, i suggest you should check out Hardcore Gaming 101 Presents: The Unofficial Guide to Shin Megami Tensei and Persona, it's avaible on amazon if you are interested.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Yaramaki

[Akun]

2 minutes ago, Yaramaki said:

Btw if you want to have a good read about a book that covers the entire SMT series and all it's spin offs, i suggest you should check out hadcoregaming 101 persona guide. 

The link doesn't work. Sad. Maybe it's from an Amazon page of a different region I don't have access to.

 

2 minutes ago, Yaramaki said:

You know this makes me wonder is Persona the more populair series now as it would be interesting to compare in a few years how many units Shin Megami Tensei V or the recent released soul hackers 2 sold. 

It has always been the more popular series since Persona 3, which was what's bugging a lot of SMT fans because people started to not care about the mainline titles as much anymore while Atlus was busy milking the Persona franchise with its merch and Persona games spin-offs like Dancing All Night and Strikers. We were lucky at all to even get Soul Hackers 2, the sequel to a spin-off of a spin-off (Soul Hackers being a spin-off of Devil Summoner games), but even then, Atlus chose to market it with Persona 5 skins, so you know how much faith Atlus has in non-Persona games these days.

[Yaramaki]

38 minutes ago, Akun said:

The link doesn't work. Sad. Maybe it's from an Amazon page of a different region I don't have access to.

Yeah i've noticed amazon does not like linking to their site, oh well just google Hardcore Gaming 101 Presents: The Unofficial Guide to Shin Megami Tensei and Persona instead and you'll come across it i'm sure.

[Grungie]

1 hour ago, Yaramaki said:

But man i would not call any Atlus or Persona game released overhyped, Atlus has been bringing out exellent games for as far as i can remember, imo their games deserve all the attention because nearly all are their games are worthy of your hard earned cash, the only problem is having the spare time to play them all. 

I didn’t call Persona 5 overhyped, I called it overrated in comparison to its other entries. Did it do anything to warrant double the sales figures besides being released on a relevant console at a relevant time?

Thats why I brought up in the original post is that it’s similar in a lot of JRPG franchises where, from a series perspective, does nothing special, but has disparaging sales figures compared to the rest of the franchise. Those entries tend to have an outside factor in play. With these same franchises, you also see disparaging differences between the most famous/popular game in the West vs Japan.

Outside of JRPG’s, you tend to see where an entry does something different, and that resonates with a lot of fans, so you can see why there’s a large rise in sales. With JRPG’s it feels like you either just throw a ton of money at its marketing, or release it on a different console, and that’s how you get people to notice.

[Akun]

1 hour ago, Grungie said:

I didn’t call Persona 5 overhyped, I called it overrated in comparison to its other entries. Did it do anything to warrant double the sales figures besides being released on a relevant console at a relevant time?

Thats why I brought up in the original post is that it’s similar in a lot of JRPG franchises where, from a series perspective, does nothing special, but has disparaging sales figures compared to the rest of the franchise. Those entries tend to have an outside factor in play. With these same franchises, you also see disparaging differences between the most famous/popular game in the West vs Japan.

Outside of JRPG’s, you tend to see where an entry does something different, and that resonates with a lot of fans, so you can see why there’s a large rise in sales. With JRPG’s it feels like you either just throw a ton of money at its marketing, or release it on a different console, and that’s how you get people to notice.

Yeah, but sales figures don't necessarily mean something is overrated though. Transformers films make tons of money, but they're some of the most hated movies in the entire history of cinema, period. That's why I find the term, "overrated," and its use, so arbitrary.

And if we're to dig deeper, what is the measure of whether a game is rated too high? In comparison to other games that you know of? Do you know every single game in existence? Have you played every single game in existence? At the end of the day, it's all an opinion based on your own experience. Someone who enjoys niched retro games might find modern AAA games overrated.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Akun

[killamch89]

21 hours ago, Grungie said:

Persona 4’s been out on Steam for like 2 years. It didn’t “tank”, but you can see that Persona 5 eclipses it by a significant amount. Also a massive amount of people only care about P5, and have no interest in P3 or 4. Even telling the P5 fans to play P4, they have zero interest. Persona 4 was a borderline cult classic. It got some initial traction on the PC port, but simmered out pretty quickly.

Let’s be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised when P6 comes out, and also doesn’t really do much different from P5, and doesn’t do nearly as well, as non-Persona fans will expect some kind of drastic upgrades, and be disappointed. It’s happened a ton in other JRPG franchises.

Persona 4 wasn't bad at all and I wouldn't call it overrated. If anything, it's highly underrated because it doesn't have half the popularity that Persona 5 has but is still a brilliant game.