Shadow of the Erdtree shows that modern FromSoft's concept of 'a challenge' relies too heavily on boss fights

[CharlesK]

It took me 10 hours in the Land of Shadow before I begrudgingly faced the Dancing Lion. That 10 hours was spent exploring the new world as thoroughly as I could, finding all but one map fragment, diving shallowly into various dungeons, and feeling that unique joy that comes with exploring a FromSoft world for the first time. The magnitude of the panorama seen after beating Rellana was lost on me, because I had already discovered that part of the world in reverse. Elsewhere, I had already explored most of Shadow Keep before hitting the back door of the Golden Hippopotamus. If we're to take Elden Ring's bosses as the main course—which I think increasingly they are—then I had basically nibbled around the chocolate chips of the cookie.

Those first 10 hours were the most absorbing 10 hours I've spent with any game this year. By that time I had my scadutree blessing level up to eight, and I had respecced away from a shoddily constructed mage into one of those famously OP blood builds that some true Elden Ring heads look upon with derision. I was having fun. The Land of Shadow is stunning; it's one of those game worlds I can barely believe exists. It may be a cliché to make this comparison, but it really does look like a fantasy paperback cover brought to life. I can't imagine a fantasy game ever looking more inviting than this. 

Then I had to start beating the bosses. Let me be clear: I don't have a problem with Shadow of the Erdtree's difficulty and I find the conversation around it tiring. I agree with Miyazaki when he says that overcoming insurmountable challenges is a huge part of the appeal of his games. But as I entered the yellow mist for my umpteenth attempt at the Dancing Lion, I wasn't feeling challenged: I was feeling bored. I was rolling my eyes. I wondered whether FromSoft has come to rely too heavily on bosses. Can we imagine a FromSoft game with fewer bosses or, dare I say, none at all? 

[Shagger]

Because this is you own personal thoughts on a game/DLC and not actual news, I've moved the topic to the "Video Games" sub-forum.

 

Long term members know how I feel about these types of games and given that I wouldn't blame anyone for not taking anything I have to say seriously.  So I might be wrong, but aren't the boss fights the whole point of these games?  The "trial and error" approach to difficulty is the reason I personally can't stand these games (To me that's a disingenuous form of challenge.  The constant repetition associated with that also make these games tedious for me.), but if you're right about From Software's over reliance on boss fights and thus detract focus from story, regular combat, exploration and other elements then just sounds like a Soulslike to me.  That's literally what's wrong with these types of games as far as I'm concerned.  Why put effort into those things when you know people are going obsess over one thing, the difficulty?

 

I'll given Elden Ring credit as it does seem to do exploration as well as it's creative design, environments and style very well, but that doesn't change the fact bosses are to a Soulslike what platforms are to a Mario game, it's what they're about.  The difference is that people don't complain about the combat in a Mario game because they know that's not the point of it.

Edited July 2 by Shagger

[Lens]

Honestly, I get where you're coming from. The game is difficult but hey, I'm not complaining about the difficulty, but I just felt that the game was relying too much on the oboss battles. Overall, I was bored and not challenged. 

 

[killamch89]

Personally, I loved the DLC - they added all kinds of crazy new abilities and I enjoyed the bossfights as well as doing some exploration. Elden Ring/Souls games aren't for everyone and most may find it torturing to play and I'm totally fine with that. There are plenty of other games out there that gamers can enjoy. Leave us Masochist to enjoy the difficulty.

[Shagger]

18 minutes ago, killamch89 said:

Personally, I loved the DLC - they added all kinds of crazy new abilities and I enjoyed the bossfights as well as doing some exploration. Elden Ring/Souls games aren't for everyone and most may find it torturing to play and I'm totally fine with that. There are plenty of other games out there that gamers can enjoy. Leave us Masochist to enjoy the difficulty.

 

By the same margin, couldn't others be left alone to enjoy exploring a game's world and story by having easier difficulty modes?  I mean, this game was written by George R.R. Martin right? Likewise, could people be allowed to answer the door, make a phone call or take a shit without a game arrogantly refusing to let you utilise the basic connivence of pausing?  Is it so much to ask that people with disabilities, so far as reasonably practical, be accommodated for with accessibility options?  People aren't trying to deny people the challenge of these games if they want them, all that's being pondered is the possibility of opening them up a little.  Adding these thing takes literally nothing away, so I don't understand why the Souls fanbase has a tantrum every time somebody so much as thinks of the idea.

 

I heard recently that gamers lost thier shit at the upcoming Dragonage game for having an "no die" option for people who just wanted to breeze through and enjoy the story.  Soulslikes can continue these ridiculous, archaic tropes if they want, but this gatekeeping bullshit has got to stop.  Dragonage isn't even a Soulslike.

[killamch89]

22 hours ago, Shagger said:

 

By the same margin, couldn't others be left alone to enjoy exploring a game's world and story by having easier difficulty modes?  I mean, this game was written by George R.R. Martin right? Likewise, could people be allowed to answer the door, make a phone call or take a shit without a game arrogantly refusing to let you utilise the basic connivence of pausing?  Is it so much to ask that people with disabilities, so far as reasonably practical, be accommodated for with accessibility options?  People aren't trying to deny people the challenge of these games if they want them, all that's being pondered is the possibility of opening them up a little.  Adding these thing takes literally nothing away, so I don't understand why the Souls fanbase has a tantrum every time somebody so much as thinks of the idea.

 

I heard recently that gamers lost thier shit at the upcoming Dragonage game for having an "no die" option for people who just wanted to breeze through and enjoy the story.  Soulslikes can continue these ridiculous, archaic tropes if they want, but this gatekeeping bullshit has got to stop.  Dragonage isn't even a Soulslike.

A no-die option is kind of insane - even kid-friendly games don't have anything like that. Everything in life you do has some kind of difficulty - breathing is a challenge. Learning anything is a challenge. I'm not outraged like those people on social media but the issue with that is most people won't even use that option. And even the one's that do will quickly get bored of the game and not really want to play it.

[Shagger]

2 hours ago, killamch89 said:

A no-die option is kind of insane - even kid-friendly games don't have anything like that. Everything in life you do has some kind of difficulty - breathing is a challenge. Learning anything is a challenge. I'm not outraged like those people on social media but the issue with that is most people won't even use that option. And even the one's that do will quickly get bored of the game and not really want to play it.

 

With all due respect, what gives you or anyone the right to decide wether people will enjoy a game or not? That attitude is not saving anyone from anything, let's get that right. The only people those throwing a hissy hit over difficulty options are thinking are themselves.

 

There are plenty of good reasons why somebody could play a game on a "no death" difficulty option without getting boared.  Somebody might have a physical or mental handicap that would make the combat in the game impossible.  Not to mention that that it makes absolute sense for people to play on easy difficulty options to just enjoy a game's story and exploration elements. You know, kind of why people play games from Boiware. The same reason play games like Life is Strange, Telltale games, Until Dawn and Detroit: Become human. There is not a damn thing wrong with that, there never was and there will be.

 

Sorry, but my temperance for other points of view hit thier limit on this issue with difficulty.  No force on Heaven nor Earth can convince me that it's anything above fucking stupid to complain about a difficulty option one is obviously not going to use. It is some insanely self-centred, gatekeeping, elitist bullshit.  That what this really about.  People looking to exclude the "unworthy" from even playing games.  The same people make the same complaints about accessibility options in games as well for same reason.

 

Regardless of why somebody might to play game that way, getting mad at a difficulty options is and always will ridiculous because it's exactly that, an OPTION!  Nobody is forcing anyone to play games that way, so is it so difficult to just turn the difficulty up and leave everyone else the fuck alone?  The only time such complaints have merit is if the game in question has no difficulty options because you're then at the mercy of the game's balence.  You know, like Elden Ring.

 

So it's 100% fair to complain about a game's difficulty when there no options, whether that person feels it's too hard or too easy.  There are other more complex things that can be complained about that I would consider legitimate gripes as well.  For example, I think magic is Skyrim is horrendously balanced.  It's too strong for enemies and too weak for the player.

 

The point is that difficulty is only a legitimate thing to complain about when it's forced. So this insanity around Dragonage?  Not a legitimate complaint because it's an option.  The criticism of Elden Ring?  That is a legitimate complaint because it's forced.  Wether you agree with it or not, everyone is entitled to feel how feel, it is legitimate because there are no options.

 

Play games how you want and let others do the same.  I don't understand why that's so hard.