DylanC Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, LadyDay said: I think that not catering to everybody should mean not catering to everyone's taste, thus letting people voluntarily exclude themselves rather than forcing exclusion on people who would actually really like to play the game in question. II disagree with @DylanC too I think, assuming he means "not catering to everyone" to mean "exclude people who would like to play it". I just don’t think a creator/artist *needs* to cater to everyone. Don’t get me wrong, accesibility is important. But forcing a game to be for everyone is inherently an impossible task anyway. The vision of the creator should be the most important thing when creating a piece of art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyDay Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, DylanC said: I just don’t think a creator/artist *needs* to cater to everyone. Don’t get me wrong, accesibility is important. But forcing a game to be for everyone is inherently an impossible task anyway. The vision of the creator should be the most important thing when creating a piece of art. This I believe I agree with. I think my position is that I would hope developers aim at making games accessible to less skilled people too, but of course it should not prevent the developers from creating their vision. I have to agree with you both on this (Dammit 😄 ). Edited April 8, 2019 by LadyDay DylanC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killamch89 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 1 hour ago, DylanC said: Trying to make a game for everyone can be problematic. I think it’s best to respect the vision of the creators. That’s what I skew towards, personally. I agree with you on this. It makes no sense fussing about a certain game when it was intended for a niche audience - that's just business. DylanC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UleTheVee Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 4 hours ago, DylanC said: I just don’t think a creator/artist *needs* to cater to everyone. Don’t get me wrong, accesibility is important. But forcing a game to be for everyone is inherently an impossible task anyway. The vision of the creator should be the most important thing when creating a piece of art. Once again, DlyanC says exactly what I've said before in a less aggressive manner. But still, I SAID THIS BEFORE GUYS COME ON! LadyDay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyPowers Posted April 8, 2019 Author Share Posted April 8, 2019 4 hours ago, LadyDay said: I am not questioning the developers right to create exactly the game they want, I am questioning the necessity of it. That pretty much sums up my view of this issue. I also think that there is a nuance in this topic which we keep bringing up, but not necessarily pointing out, which is a difference between "difficulty" and "accessibility." I mean, even on an "easy" mode, Sekiro/Souls/etc probably would never really be playable/accessible for me because the entire structure and play style of the game doesn't suit my abilities. Both my executive function and performance anxiety will always get in the way along with my general personality. I don't think a dev can do anything about that--that would be one of those impossible challenges @DylanC mentioned. But I still don't see a problem with providing an "easy" mode so that those who could feasibly get something great out of playing a game like Sekiro or Souls on a lower skill level can enjoy it. I also don't think it should be a requirement, but I see no good reason not to do it. Mostly, I am bothered by arguments which boil down to, "My enjoyment of this hard game is contigent upon others not being able to beat it on their level." It seems most sensible (and decent) to derive enjoyment from one's own experience, not from another person being deprived of their lower-skill equivalent of that experience. LadyDay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanC Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 8 hours ago, StaceyPowers said: That pretty much sums up my view of this issue. I also think that there is a nuance in this topic which we keep bringing up, but not necessarily pointing out, which is a difference between "difficulty" and "accessibility." I mean, even on an "easy" mode, Sekiro/Souls/etc probably would never really be playable/accessible for me because the entire structure and play style of the game doesn't suit my abilities. Both my executive function and performance anxiety will always get in the way along with my general personality. I don't think a dev can do anything about that--that would be one of those impossible challenges @DylanC mentioned. But I still don't see a problem with providing an "easy" mode so that those who could feasibly get something great out of playing a game like Sekiro or Souls on a lower skill level can enjoy it. I also don't think it should be a requirement, but I see no good reason not to do it. Mostly, I am bothered by arguments which boil down to, "My enjoyment of this hard game is contigent upon others not being able to beat it on their level." It seems most sensible (and decent) to derive enjoyment from one's own experience, not from another person being deprived of their lower-skill equivalent of that experience. You’re right, I think there is a nuance that gets conflated here: difficulty and accesibility. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind a developer adding an easy mode to their game, but only if it’s not detrimental to the core experience. Thus, I wouldn’t mind an easy mode being added to a game if it doesn’t undermine the game’s vision. I know it sounds weird, but Dark Souls’ difficulty/challenge is part of the experience. I genuinely think it would take a part of what makes that game special away if an easy mode was added and undermine the game as a whole. But Dark Souls is quite a unique example. Adding an easy mode to most other games, I don’t have a problem with, though. Interesting discussion, y’all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killamch89 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 3 hours ago, DylanC said: You’re right, I think there is a nuance that gets conflated here: difficulty and accesibility. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind a developer adding an easy mode to their game, but only if it’s not detrimental to the core experience. Thus, I wouldn’t mind an easy mode being added to a game if it doesn’t undermine the game’s vision. I know it sounds weird, but Dark Souls’ difficulty/challenge is part of the experience. I genuinely think it would take a part of what makes that game special away if an easy mode was added and undermine the game as a whole. But Dark Souls is quite a unique example. Adding an easy mode to most other games, I don’t have a problem with, though. Interesting discussion, y’all! Dark Souls wouldn't be Dark Souls if it doesn't raise your frustration level to ridiculous heights and leaves you grumbling constantly. It's like that one person that annoys the hell out of you and you always complain yet you just can't take yourself away from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanC Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 hour ago, killamch89 said: Dark Souls wouldn't be Dark Souls if it doesn't raise your frustration level to ridiculous heights and leaves you grumbling constantly. It's like that one person that annoys the hell out of you and you always complain yet you just can't take yourself away from them. Totally. I think that Dark Souls is thematically and structurally built around this whole "suffering together" design philosophy. An easy mode would definitely undermine this particular game. killamch89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UleTheVee Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Are you sure about that @StaceyPowers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UleTheVee Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Believe me when I say that reducing difficulty will ACTUALLY take something away from the people who work to get their entertainment and enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UleTheVee Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 8 hours ago, DylanC said: You’re right, I think there is a nuance that gets conflated here: difficulty and accesibility. Frankly, I wouldn’t mind a developer adding an easy mode to their game, but only if it’s not detrimental to the core experience. Thus, I wouldn’t mind an easy mode being added to a game if it doesn’t undermine the game’s vision. I know it sounds weird, but Dark Souls’ difficulty/challenge is part of the experience. I genuinely think it would take a part of what makes that game special away if an easy mode was added and undermine the game as a whole. But Dark Souls is quite a unique example. Adding an easy mode to most other games, I don’t have a problem with, though. Interesting discussion, y’all! Sekiro is also considered part of the SoulsBorne games. Both series are also known for their difficulty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UleTheVee Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 2 hours ago, DylanC said: Totally. I think that Dark Souls is thematically and structurally built around this whole "suffering together" design philosophy. An easy mode would definitely undermine this particular game. Same deal with Cuphead, you're supposed to beat people who are basically trying to keep their soul contracts from being taken by the devil. Of course they're going to fight with everything they've got in order to prevent the player from achieving their goal!. The Simple mode of the game not only doesn't allow players to see the entirety of the boss fights, but it also gates off players from playing the part with the Devil and King Dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UleTheVee Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Believe it or not, reducing a skill gap or making a game easier to beat (Even if it's a separate difficulty mode) is going to have negative repercussions. Especially because it undermines the achievements that other players have made. Look at the recent Resident Evil 2 "All-Unlock" DLC. Now players are able to purchase the stuff many players have worked so hard for, destrfoying their achievements and making fun of them for playing the goddamned game to begin with. So yeah, EASE comes with a price. No matter what game it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blackangel Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 22 hours ago, UleTheVee said: So yeah, it's not Elitism, it's not "Need", it's simply a game that a developer wants certain players to play. Not everyone. Then isn't that just exclusionary, possibly even prejudice? That only players that the game developer views worthy gets to play their game? Sounds a bit like Nazism to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killamch89 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 hour ago, UleTheVee said: Sekiro is also considered part of the SoulsBorne games. Both series are also known for their difficulty. I haven't gotten around to Sekiro as yet but if it's anything like Dark Souls - sign me up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
