Did anything in Rapture (in Bioshock) deserve to be saved?

[StaceyPowers]

In Bioshock 1, there is a point where Fontaine says something to you about “nothing down here deserves to be saved.” From a moral standpoint, I think it’s fairly obvious the Little Sisters deserve to be saved. But do you think anything else in Rapture deserves to be saved?

It’s easy for me to lean toward his misanthropy regarding the place. But judging from some interactions and recordings lying around the place, to me it seems like most of the populace were foolish albeit ordinary people who invested into a concept that wasn’t going to pan out. I suspect that at least some of them must have survived (I haven’t played Bioshock 2 yet) after the city went insane, and like Tannenbaum, may have evolved as human beings (in the way that truly matters). So I reckon Rapture might be worth saving. Plus, the place itself is a marvel, and surely such vision deserves to be spared and redirected toward something positive if possible.

Did you feel Rapture had any redeeming qualities or possibilities?

[DylanC]

8 hours ago, StaceyPowers said:

In Bioshock 1, there is a point where Fontaine says something to you about “nothing down here deserves to be saved.” From a moral standpoint, I think it’s fairly obvious the Little Sisters deserve to be saved. But do you think anything else in Rapture deserves to be saved?

It’s easy for me to lean toward his misanthropy regarding the place. But judging from some interactions and recordings lying around the place, to me it seems like most of the populace were foolish albeit ordinary people who invested into a concept that wasn’t going to pan out. I suspect that at least some of them must have survived (I haven’t played Bioshock 2 yet) after the city went insane, and like Tannenbaum, may have evolved as human beings (in the way that truly matters). So I reckon Rapture might be worth saving. Plus, the place itself is a marvel, and surely such vision deserves to be spared and redirected toward something positive if possible.

Did you feel Rapture had any redeeming qualities or possibilities?

At its core, Rapture is a city that has fallen because of its Libertarian/Objectivist values and politics. The people at the heart of Rapture are the victims and were just "too free", if that makes sense. However, I don't think *all* the people there were evil and unworthy of saving. Most have simply descended into madness because of drug use, though. Tenenbaum is a good character IIRC.

Furthermore, much like the Little Sisters, I'd say the Big Daddies deserved saving, too. They don't seem "evil" per se. Essentially, they're just doing their job as protectors. 

[StaceyPowers]

12 hours ago, DylanC said:

At its core, Rapture is a city that has fallen because of its Libertarian/Objectivist values and politics. The people at the heart of Rapture are the victims and were just "too free", if that makes sense. However, I don't think *all* the people there were evil and unworthy of saving. Most have simply descended into madness because of drug use, though. Tenenbaum is a good character IIRC.

Furthermore, much like the Little Sisters, I'd say the Big Daddies deserved saving, too. They don't seem "evil" per se. Essentially, they're just doing their job as protectors. 

Good call about the Big Daddies. They really got a raw deal, and it immediately struck me during my first encounter with one that "wow, this is the only person in this place that hasnt been hostile to me so far." 

I've heard people say that Rapture failed because Ryan wasn't really loyal to its ideals, and behaved in a hypocritical fashion. But Fontaine seems to me to be a perfect end result of the Objectivist values of the city, and he lived up to it. Even if Ryan hadn't gone to war with him, I think Fontaine's greed and indifference would still have driven him to destroy Rapture. He would still have used it as a testing ground, and he still would have tried to bury the evidence. So I am in agreement with you that the Objectivist values--at least taken to such extremes--were indeed to blame. And in that sense, I do feel the blame spreads to the populace, who bought into those values to their own detriment. I just hope that some of the survivors would learn from their mistakes.

[skyfire]

The way that world worked, I think it had bizzare element in it and harder to save anything in the end. 

[kingpotato]

Aside from the Little Sisters and the Big Daddies there wasnt much else to save. The people of rapture , the splicers are beyond saving, sometimes if you could here the conversations between the splicers in B1 & B2 you could hear that they reached a low point in their existence and descended into madness. In my opinion Rapture failed because of the human nature, like Fontaine said once the people of Rapture expected to live in luxury as kings and they never stopped to think "who was going to clean the toilets in this place?" their ambition created chaos and from that chaos Fontaine took the advantage and tried to become the "king" of Rapture, which is dumb and contradicting considering he agreed that Rapture was a shitty place and it didnt served to be saved, but never the less Fontaine understood human nature and Andrew Ryan only believed in a dream. 

[skyfire]

I think apart from the ideology. I guess they should have kept some sort of points where they could have made the sequel further. It's pity that they seem to be losing the plot after 2nd sequels game. 

[kingpotato]

On 2/22/2020 at 10:37 PM, skyfire said:

I think apart from the ideology. I guess they should have kept some sort of points where they could have made the sequel further. It's pity that they seem to be losing the plot after 2nd sequels game. 

What sort of points ? I agree the plot of the second game was very weak.

[StaceyPowers]

On 2/22/2020 at 7:23 AM, kingpotato said:

Aside from the Little Sisters and the Big Daddies there wasnt much else to save. The people of rapture , the splicers are beyond saving, sometimes if you could here the conversations between the splicers in B1 & B2 you could hear that they reached a low point in their existence and descended into madness. In my opinion Rapture failed because of the human nature, like Fontaine said once the people of Rapture expected to live in luxury as kings and they never stopped to think "who was going to clean the toilets in this place?" their ambition created chaos and from that chaos Fontaine took the advantage and tried to become the "king" of Rapture, which is dumb and contradicting considering he agreed that Rapture was a shitty place and it didnt served to be saved, but never the less Fontaine understood human nature and Andrew Ryan only believed in a dream. 

Excellent analysis, and you’ve expressed your thoughts really clearly. I completely agree with you that the entire philosophy behind Rapture was flawed from the off. The irony to me is that Fontaine did exactly what Andrew Ryan encouraged everyone in Rapture to do with its runaway cut-throat capitalist ideology. And Rapture ended the way that it would inevitably end. Ryan was surprisingly naïve in his belief that the system he put in place was sustainable.

10 hours ago, kingpotato said:

What sort of points ? I agree the plot of the second game was very weak.

I hear a lot of people say this, though I liked it. It didn’t have any “twists” in it and lacked the cleverness of both BioShock 1 and Infinite, but I thought it still told a solid story, albeit one which was more interesting personally than politically. Although I did like that it took on collectivism and its dangers when taken to extremes. What do you feel would have made for some improvements in the plot?

One thing that did irritate me was that I really wished Eleanor had killed her mother in my playthrough, but alas, the only way I can make this happen is apparently to make decisions earlier in the game that feel lousy to me.

[kingpotato]

16 hours ago, StaceyPowers said:

Excellent analysis, and you’ve expressed your thoughts really clearly. I completely agree with you that the entire philosophy behind Rapture was flawed from the off. The irony to me is that Fontaine did exactly what Andrew Ryan encouraged everyone in Rapture to do with its runaway cut-throat capitalist ideology. And Rapture ended the way that it would inevitably end. Ryan was surprisingly naïve in his belief that the system he put in place was sustainable.

I hear a lot of people say this, though I liked it. It didn’t have any “twists” in it and lacked the cleverness of both BioShock 1 and Infinite, but I thought it still told a solid story, albeit one which was more interesting personally than politically. Although I did like that it took on collectivism and its dangers when taken to extremes. What do you feel would have made for some improvements in the plot?

One thing that did irritate me was that I really wished Eleanor had killed her mother in my playthrough, but alas, the only way I can make this happen is apparently to make decisions earlier in the game that feel lousy to me.

That was also one of the issues I didnt liked about B2, you never get to face Dr Lamb, in my opinion she was never a threat , and seeing her get saved at the end was kinda dumb, I wish she would at least drown in the flooding along rapture

[skyfire]

On 2/25/2020 at 8:37 PM, kingpotato said:

What sort of points ? I agree the plot of the second game was very weak.

It lacks the mystery and the plot holes. Not just that they were attempting to make it more of puzzle type FPS than following the storyline. So kind of small details like this. 

[kingpotato]

20 hours ago, skyfire said:

It lacks the mystery and the plot holes. Not just that they were attempting to make it more of puzzle type FPS than following the storyline. So kind of small details like this. 

Oh yes there is zero mystery on B2, I think that was the whole issue, and the ending felt rushed.

[skyfire]

And if they continue to build the new games on the BS 2 it'd be really bad. They need something to backtrack from BS 1.