What games reveal about player morality?

[StaceyPowers]

Have you ever made any interesting observations on human nature/morality from gaming? I mean specifically concerning players, not characters.

Like, I have two examples.

The first is BioShock, where you have to decide whether to harvest or save the Little Sisters. Ask most players who harvest why they do it, and they will say it is the practical choice, given that they receive more ADAM.

But having played through with zero harvests of Little Sisters, I had zero resource difficulties (on normal, anyway; I haven’t played on the hardest level). The Little Sisters gift you with ADAM, money, etc., and plenty of it.

Thus, citing pragmatism as a motive for harvesting seems to be an excuse. It appears to me that the only valid reason to give for harvesting little girls is for the fun of harvesting little girls. They are pixelated little girls, but it surely says something curious about the people who consistently choose this on their playthroughs.

My second example is my experiences playing MUDs, where the things I found out about people were far more straightforward and obviously linked to the real world. People who consistently did rotten things in MUDs gave as their excuse that it was “just a game, and isn’t me.” But I would argue if you are spending 5+ hours a day pouring energy and emotion into a world, it is a valid metaverse, even if it is virtual, and therefore one’s actions there “count.”

I would say in both cases, the insight is that 1-a lot of people do enjoy hurting others, and 2-they don’t really want to admit it even to themselves.

Does anyone here have any insights into human nature or morality to share from your experiences gaming?

@killamch89 @skyfire @kingpotato @Alyxx @The Blackangel @LadyDay @DylanC

[The Blackangel]

You forgot the third option. There are those of us who honestly don't care enough about people that hurting them and helping them all amounts to the same thing to us. If I kill someone in a car wreck, oh well. If I save someone's life in a car wreck, oh well. Human life means absolutely nothing to us.

Sociopaths.

If it is interesting to me at the time, then fuck anyone who has a problem with it. Fuck anyone who likes it. Typically those people will never be anything other than differently colored pixels anyway, so why the hell should I take notice?

With me personally, in gaming, I'm not your friend. If you happen to be going the same direction I'm going then whatever. But don't expect any kind of help or even reaction if you end up in a bad situation. I'm also the same IRL. Yes sociopaths can form an emotional bond, in extremely rare situations. But that doesn't mean we give a shit about anyone else.

[LadyDay]

I think that one has to be careful judging peoples morality based on their behavior in computer games. We all commit the ultimate moral crime, killing, in computer games. Sometimes even pixelated representations of humans. I don't believe that everybody who plays Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty or whatever have questionable morality in real life. I also don't think that those who are entertained by torturing and killing characters in The Sims, where it isn't a premise of the game,  or unneccesarily killing non-enemies in Skyrim or GTA or whatever, have questionable morals. In general I don't think gamers are less moral people than others, despite constantly killing characters in an imagined world. When we play a game we create a character in our mind, a character that isn't us, we don't become the character, we tell ourselves a story. I think it's just a case of finding different stories interesting. Just like people who enjoy watching slasher horror movies don't like watching real life brutal murder. 

Of cause there exists the occasional sociopath, @The Blackangel even admits to being one, who just don't have a sense of empathy, but I don't think their actions in video games are particularly connected to their lacking empathy. They might as well manipulate real life people as video game characters. Correct me if I'm wrong @The Blackangel? But maybe some take it out on video game characters rather than real humans, because they know on an intellectual level that taking it out on real humans might lead to themselves being punished? My point is, I don't think there are a noticeably higher percentage of sociopaths/psychopaths among gamers than among non-gamers. 

I also don't think that people lose their sense of morality by playing violent video games. 

That's my two cents 🙂 

[killamch89]

I'm not sure you can judge players based on their choices in-game because some of the choices that I make in-game is more out of curiosity to see how they story will end than me using my moral compass. If I were to be judged by my gaming "moral" compass, I'd be labelled a psycho who only takes pleasure in wrecking everything in sight and creating chaos when I'm nothing like that in real life.

[The Blackangel]

10 hours ago, LadyDay said:

Of cause there exists the occasional sociopath, @The Blackangel even admits to being one, who just don't have a sense of empathy, but I don't think their actions in video games are particularly connected to their lacking empathy. They might as well manipulate real life people as video game characters. Correct me if I'm wrong @The Blackangel? But maybe some take it out on video game characters rather than real humans, because they know on an intellectual level that taking it out on real humans might lead to themselves being punished? My point is, I don't think there are a noticeably higher percentage of sociopaths/psychopaths among gamers than among non-gamers. 

You're right for the most part. The main difference is that after the manipulation in game, we would probably kill the person just for fun. IRL, however, we typically wouldn't unless we knew we could get away with it, or the person pissed us off. We're reactive whereas psychopaths are preactive. Meaning they plan out their actions. They preplan, we react to the moment. Which typically makes a sociopath more dangerous because we are so unpredictable.

BTW, "preactive" isn't a real word, it was just the best thing I could think of for a description.

[StaceyPowers]

17 hours ago, The Blackangel said:

You forgot the third option. There are those of us who honestly don't care enough about people that hurting them and helping them all amounts to the same thing to us. If I kill someone in a car wreck, oh well. If I save someone's life in a car wreck, oh well. Human life means absolutely nothing to us.

I didn't forget it. I just was more focused on/drawn curiously to players who seem to exhibit a schism between their own beliefs about themselves and the behaviours they carry out, and what those behaviours might reflect about their actual motives. You're upfront about how you are wired and how you behave, in and out of games.

11 hours ago, LadyDay said:

I don't believe that everybody who plays Grand Theft Auto or Call of Duty or whatever have questionable morality in real life.

Oh, I don't either. Likewise, I don't expect someone who kills the little girls in BioShock is going to start killing little girls in real life, or even has a desire to (in most cases). I just think their minds may have more dimensions to them with regards to sadism (even pixelated sadism) than they are comfortable admitting. Why make excuses for in-game behaviours, unless someone is bothered on a deep-seated level by their own in-game behaviours? Why not just admit that killing the little girls is fun? Somebody hiding behind pragmatism seems to be morally conflicted.

The MUDs are a more concrete example, since they are multiplayer games, and peoples' actions really do affect others. I mean, I remember actions in games I played that destroyed peoples' real-life relationships. There was a fine line between "in character" and "out of character." A lot of peoples' IC relationships had RL components (or even moved entirely into RL).

4 hours ago, killamch89 said:

I'm not sure you can judge players based on their choices in-game because some of the choices that I make in-game is more out of curiosity to see how they story will end than me using my moral compass

Such a good point. I do this too sometimes.

50 minutes ago, The Blackangel said:

We're reactive whereas psychopaths are preactive. 

That's one of the most succinct descriptions of the difference I've read. I always looked at as "hot" versus "cold." Your explanation is more concrete.

Edited November 26, 2019 by StaceyPowers

[kingpotato]

I just didnt killed the little sisters because I felt bad for them...😕

I was going to say that the Witcher 3 has a lot of decisions like this, but after reaching level 40 I will say thats not entirely true,  you can make a decision that at your belief is a good moral decision but it can end up being a bad decision with terrible consequences, so there is no way to tell if the consequences will be good or bad, on some cases you can easily predict the situation but thats not always the case.

[LadyDay]

19 minutes ago, StaceyPowers said:

Oh, I don't either. Likewise, I don't expect someone who kills the little girls in BioShock is going to start killing little girls in real life, or even has a desire to (in most cases). I just think their minds may have more dimensions to them with regards to sadism (even pixelated sadism) than they are comfortable admitting. Why make excuses for in-game behaviours, unless someone is bothered on a deep-seated level by their own in-game behaviours? Why not just admit that killing the little girls is fun?

It might be that there is something there. At least I know that I tend to play the "good guy" in games and make the moral choices. I'd kinda feel bad about killing little pixel girls. But I am hesitant to say that that makes me more moral/empathetic/less sadistic at my core than somebody who chooses to kill the girls! But then again, maybe we are. It's a very interesting question! 

@The Blackangel Your way of being so up front makes you very interesting. I would expect a sociopath to hide this part of themselves and play pretense. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by LadyDay

[The Blackangel]

5 hours ago, LadyDay said:

 Your way of being so up front makes you very interesting. I would expect a sociopath to hide this part of themselves and play pretense. 

Why should I hide it? We're out there. We are the ones you see out and about that you just get that feeling to stay away from. The ones that something isn't right, but you just can't quite put your finger on it. A lot of people say we have ice water in our veins. There's a website I go to often that would make everyone here sick. To get an idea what is on this site, google "3 guys one hammer".

[LadyDay]

3 hours ago, The Blackangel said:

Why should I hide it? 

Because it must be easier to play mind games for someone who appears superficially charming instead of wearing it as a badge. But then again, being open about it can lower peoples parades too. You definitely watch stuff that shouldn't be available online and that most people would be unable to watch (me included). Anyway, you're still very, very enjoyable to talk computer games with and an asset to the forum. And somebody we care about, even if you don't get what that's about. 🙂 

If you play the game @StaceyPowers mentions, are you more likely to chose to kill the girls because that's enjoyable? Or are you indifferent and chose whatever makes most sense to do well at the game? Do you think your behavior in video games is related to your sociopathy or are those two separate? Do you think violent video games attract people with antisocial personality disorder(s)? Yes, that was a barrage  of questions. 😄 

[The Blackangel]

Would I kill them? Depends on if I’m bored or if they were pissing me off. Watching their blood oozing out of the wound would be a hell of a thrill either way though.

 I’m indifferent as whether it bothers anyone else. If it bothers you, then you have 2 options. Piss off, or fuck off.

I typically play one player games that more or less have a specific path that you follow. Some are a little more open than others, but there’s not a lot that have the option.

Some may be attracted to violent games. But others may not. It’s not a lump sum. While I may be into as much blood and gore as I can find, another one may only like Super Mario World because he/she wants to bang the blue Yoshi.

 

7 hours ago, LadyDay said:

Because it must be easier to play mind games for someone who appears superficially charming instead of wearing it as a badge. But then again, being open about it can lower peoples parades too. You definitely watch stuff that shouldn't be available online and that most people would be unable to watch (me included). Anyway, you're still very, very enjoyable to talk computer games with and an asset to the forum. And somebody we care about, even if you don't get what that's about. 🙂 

How do you know I’m not playing a mind game right now?

[LadyDay]

6 minutes ago, The Blackangel said:

How do you know I’m not playing a mind game right now?

I don't. 

7 minutes ago, The Blackangel said:

Would I kill them? Depends on if I’m bored or if they were pissing me off. Watching their blood oozing out of the wound would be a hell of a thrill either way though.

 I’m indifferent as whether it bothers anyone else. If it bothers you, then you have 2 options. Piss off, or fuck off.

I typically play one player games that more or less have a specific path that you follow. Some are a little more open than others, but there’s not a lot that have the option.

Some may be attracted to violent games. But others may not. It’s not a lump sum. While I may be into as much blood and gore as I can find, another one may only like Super Mario World because he/she wants to bang the blue Yoshi.

I'm not bothered by however you play video games. It's a video game. Just curious. I appreciate the insights. 🙂 

As for the snuff porn - I guess I'll piss the fuck off. Don't need to hear about it. 

[StaceyPowers]

23 hours ago, kingpotato said:

I just didnt killed the little sisters because I felt bad for them...😕

I was going to say that the Witcher 3 has a lot of decisions like this, but after reaching level 40 I will say thats not entirely true,  you can make a decision that at your belief is a good moral decision but it can end up being a bad decision with terrible consequences, so there is no way to tell if the consequences will be good or bad, on some cases you can easily predict the situation but thats not always the case.

I remember I stayed on the fence for so long the first time in Skyrim, and then I was furious when Markarth got traded during the treaty council. So much for that being a "good decision."

23 hours ago, LadyDay said:

But I am hesitant to say that that makes me more moral/empathetic/less sadistic at my core than somebody who chooses to kill the girls! But then again, maybe we are. 

I have no idea. I mean, I am sure there are examples of people who would kill the pixel girls happily, but never harm a fly IRL, and people who might always spare the pixel girls, but kill real ones. 

I suspect that value attribution and goals play a role here too. I tend to try and learn about myself and practice decision-making via games, so I usually make what I feel is the "righteous" choices by my own set of chosen ethics. But someone who has no interest in practicing decision making may behave differently. There is also, I think, some question as to the value of the lives of pixel girls. Do they matter or not? They are just data. But to a large extent, so are we. 

Regardless, I'm less fascinated by the act of killing the pixel girls, and more fascinated by why someone would feel a need to give an excuse for it if the pixel girls have no meaning to them =D

14 hours ago, LadyDay said:

ut then again, being open about it can lower peoples parades too.

I was going to mention that. My former BFF was very open about fantasizing every day about killing people. I felt comfortable with her because she didn't conceal anything about her psychology, and I had value to her at the time. Eventually, I lost that value. At that point, I recognized the vulnerability of my situation. I don't think she'll likely make the leap to RL, but if she did, I think I might be on her list.

[LadyDay]

24 minutes ago, StaceyPowers said:

Regardless, I'm less fascinated by the act of killing the pixel girls, and more fascinated by why someone would feel a need to give an excuse for it if the pixel girls have no meaning to them =D

The more I think about it, the more potential reasons I can come up with for making excuses for it. Some about feeling guilty, some about wanting people to believe that they feel guilty. I know I'd sleep better next to someone who felt bad about making such a black and white moral decision, and having gone with the child-killing route. I could see why people would try it on a second play through out of curiosity as to what would happen. 

45 minutes ago, StaceyPowers said:

I was going to mention that. My former BFF was very open about fantasizing every day about killing people. I felt comfortable with her because she didn't conceal anything about her psychology, and I had value to her at the time. Eventually, I lost that value. At that point, I recognized the vulnerability of my situation. I don't think she'll likely make the leap to RL, but if she did, I think I might be on her list.

Yeah. I guess it's easy to be lulled into a feeling of being special and safe as a result of being "confided in". Or to just assume that somebody with the actual ability to seriously harm others wouldn't go around advertising it. I hope you don't feel unsafe and that you're completely free of people who try to take advantage of you! Can't be fun to have the thought in the back of your mind that you could, however unlikely, be on somebodies hit list! At least @The Blackangel said that some sociopaths in the end just "wants to bang the blue Yoshi". 😉 

 

 

[StaceyPowers]

2 hours ago, LadyDay said:

 I know I'd sleep better next to someone who felt bad about making such a black and white moral decision, and having gone with the child-killing route. I could see why people would try it on a second play through out of curiosity as to what would happen. 

it's easy to be lulled into a feeling of being special and safe as a result of being "confided in". Or to just assume that somebody with the actual ability to seriously harm others wouldn't go around advertising it. I hope you don't feel unsafe and that you're completely free of people who try to take advantage of you! Can't be fun to have the thought in the back of your mind that you could, however unlikely, be on somebodies hit list! At least @The Blackangel said that some sociopaths in the end just "wants to bang the blue Yoshi". 😉 

 

 

I was curious too, so I looked up the videos of the other BioShock endings online. I don't think I'd sleep better next to someone I didn't understand though, even if they felt bad, or acted like they did :/ I'd rather know what I'm dealing with so I know where it fits in my life, and I'd rather be able to trust someone and know they aren't lying to me/themselves.

I don't think she tried to take advantage of me. We both made a selection error with each other, I think, and only after she knew herself better did she realize she didn't need/want me around anymore. Control is her main issue (and mine--one of the reasons we connected), so I think as long as I don't mess with her (i.e. try to get revenge for her ditching me), she'll probably leave me alone.