Petition to finish games

[The Blackangel]

This is the best thing I can think of to do. Maybe developers will take notice. Maybe not. But if we can get this spread around the internet, it can't hurt.

http://chng.it/rGPvhxB82G

[m76]

"Finish" yeah, there are more shades to that word in development than you can imagine. When is a game really finished?

There is no clear point when you can say "Finished", but there has to be a point where the developers draw a line.

It's never possible to have all features conceived by the developers in a game. There is always cut content, unrealized ideas.
There must be, ideas change, superseded, become incompatible with other features, or turn out to be bores.

So there is no truly finishing a game, or if you insist you get something like star citizen, that after 8 years and 350 million dollars still doesn't resemble a fully featured game.

Edited January 8, 2021 by m76

[Withywarlock]

Much as I like slacktivism and the things petitions have achieved, I don't think that's going to make anywhere near as big an impact on the games industry as voting with one's wallet. I get the arguments against voting with one's wallet when so-called 'whales' can undermine all that progress instantly and unwittingly, but that also applies to petitions. I can sign a petition and still buy a video game sight unseen, just like how people aligning with Boycott Modern Warfare 2, err, bought Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. It's not enough to sign away the problem - it takes a whole lot of habitual changes to pre-ordering, not viewing hype material (even downvoting a trailer helps it get into more people's feeds) and waiting for sales on season passes for this to change.

Had I still access to my Change.org account I'd sign if only to help a fellow forumgoer, but I say with heavy heart that I don't think this will work. I'd like to be wrong though. ^^

[staticradio725]

11 hours ago, Withywarlock said:

Much as I like slacktivism and the things petitions have achieved, I don't think that's going to make anywhere near as big an impact on the games industry as voting with one's wallet. I get the arguments against voting with one's wallet when so-called 'whales' can undermine all that progress instantly and unwittingly, but that also applies to petitions. I can sign a petition and still buy a video game sight unseen, just like how people aligning with Boycott Modern Warfare 2, err, bought Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. It's not enough to sign away the problem - it takes a whole lot of habitual changes to pre-ordering, not viewing hype material (even downvoting a trailer helps it get into more people's feeds) and waiting for sales on season passes for this to change.

Had I still access to my Change.org account I'd sign if only to help a fellow forumgoer, but I say with heavy heart that I don't think this will work. I'd like to be wrong though. ^^

I agree. The reason game developers are rushing games and releasing them before they're ready is because people keep buying them. And with everything being released on online platforms now, they can always just fix all the bugs later with a patch once people have had time to play the game and find where the bugs are. Sad, but true. 
I'll sign anyway, because it can't hurt, but I'd be shocked if it made any difference.

[m76]

17 hours ago, staticradio725 said:

I agree. The reason game developers are rushing games and releasing them before they're ready is because people keep buying them.

Not really, they are rushed because the investors who fund the development want to see returns rather sooner than later. The only thing you can achieve by not buying a specific game is that similar games will have a hard time acquiring funding. So I'd actually advise everyone to buy the games that fall within their interests if they hope to get more games in that genre.

Just look at Mass Effect Andromeda, after it's lacklustre launch  they put the entire universe on ice, when the real issue wasn't that people didn't want a Mass Effect game, it was that they didn't want a mediocre one.

[Reality vs Adventure]

13 minutes ago, m76 said:

Not really, they are rushed because the investors who fund the development want to see returns rather sooner than later. The only thing you can achieve by not buying a specific game is that similar games will have a hard time acquiring funding. So I'd actually advise everyone to buy the games that fall within their interests if they hope to get more games in that genre.

Just look at Mass Effect Andromeda, after it's lacklustre launch  they put the entire universe on ice, when the real issue wasn't that people didn't want a Mass Effect game, it was that they didn't want a mediocre one.

Interesting point. Seems like an endless cycle where investors want their returns and buyers keep buying. Consumers ultimately hold all the power. I think you are right that if buyers don't buy a game, then it can hurt the genre. A petition can be helpful to not confuse that point between unfinished vs a finished low demand game. Eventually investors will get the idea that consumers have a voice and power with that voice. So a petition is that voice before we have a consumer/investor war. They don't run the business; we do. We run all businesses. The people are the CEO's. We decide what products to keep on the shelf. There will always be people buying those unfinished games which make it hard to have our voices heard. That is always the problem where consumers that hold all the power in the world, can't unite. But we own the world, factionalized for their gain as the main force of control and the element of war. There is a real consumer war out there. They know it; they fear us; they will always try to divide what we buy. Cause they fear our power. Cough cough; oh yeah, games.

We just need to let our voices heard and not wait on the market to fail and embarrass themselves again. And not just them, but also us at Christmas so we don't give a gift and later hear it on the news it has problems. 

[Shagger]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The problem isn't game developers/publishers pushing games out the door to early to meet deadlines, it is letting greed drive them to be irresponsible when setting those deadlines to begin.

 

Delayed releases and games coming out broken in desperate need of patching would never happen if publishers simply waited untill they knew, and I mean really knew for a fact, that game would be completed to the standard we as customers expect for a certain day. Then, and only then, announce the release date and allow people to pre-order. However, that just doesn't happen, does it?

 

Game publishers need all the money before they even have a product to offer in return, that's what pre-orders are all about. Games offering pre-orders up to a year before the game is supposed to release are commonplace now, and that's the route of the problem. Game companies can't sell a pre-order unless they have a shipping date, that's why release dates for video games are announced so ridiculously early.

 

It just takes game companies, for just one meeting, to value common sense over greed, just once and this problem we all share will be all but eliminated. Game developers wouldn't have to suffer the embarrassment of a game being delayed, game publishers wouldn't have deal with backlash from broken releases and we gamers would avoid the frustration of having to wait longer than we were promised for a game that may still come out busted. Everybody would win.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Shagger

[Reality vs Adventure]

42 minutes ago, Shagger said:

Game publishers need all the money before they even have a product to offer in return, that's what pre-orders are all about. Games offering pre-orders up to a year before the game is supposed to release are commonplace now, and that's the route of the problem. Game companies can't sell a pre-order unless they have a shipping date, that's why release dates for video games are announced so ridiculously early.

Maybe the petition should be against pre orders. Then it will be the investors responsibility to make sure the game is released complete, and if there is backlash for a broken game, then the investors hold the developers responsible. There should be a 'finished product' contract between the two parties that prevents the impatience and greed of investors or developers alike. Wouldn't taking away pre orders also help fight against scalpers? It would have helped in the console release, maybe not necessarily the games.  

[Shagger]

16 minutes ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

Maybe the petition should be against pre orders. Then it will be the investors responsibility to make sure the game is released complete, and if there is backlash for a broken game, then the investors hold the developers responsible. There should be a 'finished product' contract between the two parties that prevents the impatience and greed of investors or developers alike. Wouldn't taking away pre orders also help fight against scalpers? It would have helped in the console release, maybe not necessarily the games.  

 

Investors would never ask a game publisher to not open pre-orders for a game, even if it were to prevent delays or a messy release. Investors may even be the reason game publishers have turned pre-ordering into the hair brained, greedy scam that it is these days. 

[Kane99]

The majority of the problem lies with the publishers and studio heads I think. Just look at EA's history. They are known for destroying a studio. 

And with Ubisoft, Rockstar, CDPR and other studios pushing crunch on their developers to push a game out faster or on their release date. 

So many publishers are pushing devs to make the release dates, and that's what hurts them for the most part. I wish studios did what movies do, where they show the trailer months before it is to come to theaters. Maybe it should be this way for the game industry, games should be announced when they're nearly ready to release. Maybe it's this early teasing that causes these types of problems. 

Idk, I just feel like publishers need to trust their developers and let them take as much time as they need to make the product they want. Otherwise, this will continue to be a problem in the industry. 

[Reality vs Adventure]

27 minutes ago, Kane99 said:

The majority of the problem lies with the publishers and studio heads I think. Just look at EA's history. They are known for destroying a studio. 

And with Ubisoft, Rockstar, CDPR and other studios pushing crunch on their developers to push a game out faster or on their release date. 

So many publishers are pushing devs to make the release dates, and that's what hurts them for the most part. I wish studios did what movies do, where they show the trailer months before it is to come to theaters. Maybe it should be this way for the game industry, games should be announced when they're nearly ready to release. Maybe it's this early teasing that causes these types of problems. 

Idk, I just feel like publishers need to trust their developers and let them take as much time as they need to make the product they want. Otherwise, this will continue to be a problem in the industry. 

What exactly is pressuring the publishers to rush things? Is it all greed or the investors? If it is the investors pressuring the publishers, then it goes back to blaming investors. So who exactly is responsible???

Publishers?

Investors?

Developers?

Consumers?

 

[m76]

47 minutes ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

What exactly is pressuring the publishers to rush things? Is it all greed or the investors? If it is the investors pressuring the publishers, then it goes back to blaming investors. So who exactly is responsible???

Publishers?

Investors?

Developers?

Consumers?

 

In reality consumers are pushing for release just as badly. I mean just think of CP2077 devs getting death threats when they announced the last delay. Of course it's an outlier but the rest of the consumers aren't disagreeing they just don't stoop to that level. 

 

[Withywarlock]

1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

What exactly is pressuring the publishers to rush things? Is it all greed or the investors? If it is the investors pressuring the publishers, then it goes back to blaming investors. So who exactly is responsible???

Publishers?

Investors?

Developers?

Consumers?

 

What makes change difficult is it's a culmination of all of those things:

• Publishers choosing to accept investment by being publically traded.
• Depending on the number of shares, Investors can inject themselves into the creative direction as much as publishers.
• Developers not being in a position, or not using their current position to properly communicate to the publisher why a game needs more time or certain resources (which the publisher can provide within reason).
• Consumers who will pre-order based on what developers/publishers want them to see, and not having the willpower to wait until real-world results are live (I say this even as a critic who wants eyes on their publication).

That's only scratching the surface as I don't have enough experience with the first three to begin to comment what other problems lie within. But even then,

• Publishers make the money they give to developers and external marketing from copies sold.
• Most Investors only see cheap stocks to be sold later and this would apply to any publically traded company, not just video games.
• Developers are, as said earlier, often overspecialised to the point where effective communication is difficult even without the stress of crunch and other workplace abuses.
• Consumers aren't always given enough information from what should be trustworthy sources such as reviewers because review copies can be different to what everyone else will receive, or preview events being misleading. It's not wrong for them to expect a game to function at launch, even if I advise not buying day one.

So while I'd blamed consumers earlier, I also must blame the publishers for their shortsightedness (or not, as the case may be), studios getting bloated even if it wasn't the fault of the current heads, and investors for doing what investors do and damn the consequences.

Like a lot of issues in this world this is another matter that is neither black nor white, but several shades of cack. I envy anyone who can blame just one of the above for not overthinking it. That way madness lies.

[Shagger]

1 hour ago, m76 said:

In reality consumers are pushing for release just as badly. I mean just think of CP2077 devs getting death threats when they announced the last delay. Of course it's an outlier but the rest of the consumers aren't disagreeing they just don't stoop to that level. 

 

 

Sending death threats to people is not an acceptable way to behave under any circumstances, doing so over something like a video game just makes it arbitrary and completely stupid.

 

However, that doesn't change the fact CDPR created that situation for themselves, not when the announced the delay, but when they announced the original release date. That was in June 2019 at E3 for a release in April 2020. That's 10 MONTHS earlier. There is no way that anyone at CDPR knew, and I mean knew, the game would be ready by then. Anyone who did was either an optimist, an idiot or a liar, but most likely all three. A full 18 months passed since E3 2019 and game finally came out...  completely unfinished. And the worst part? CDPR knew it. That's why they only sent out PC copies for review and is also why reviewers weren't allowed to use their own captured footage. That's as dishonest as it gets. 

 

I'm sure there was a lot of pressure to announce the release at E3 so the pre-orders could start there, and goes right back to the point I made earlier. That's what always about. Money.

 

So, even though the aforementioned death threats are not acceptable (And it happened again over PS2 themed PS5 again if anyone is interested. Check the end of this thread.), nobody should offer CDPR any sympathy. They were greedy, crunched their employees, disrespectful to journalists and were downright dishonest to us all. 

 

1 hour ago, Reality vs Adventure said:

What exactly is pressuring the publishers to rush things? Is it all greed or the investors? If it is the investors pressuring the publishers, then it goes back to blaming investors. So who exactly is responsible???

Publishers?

Investors?

Developers?

Consumers?

 

The responsibility ultimately falls to publishers, but you're right, it's not as straightforward as that. Investors are just businessmen/woman putting in cash to earn a return with little care of the ethics or complexities involved, but they can put alot of pressure on publishers. If investors want something included, or even absent from the game, because they think will make them more money, they'll probably get it. The same thing goes for how the game is publicised, promoted and even manufactured.

 

As for the developer, well, I work at a dockyard for a big engineering firm, and we have a saying, "Shit rolls down, but not up". Somebody takes a "dump" of an idea in board room somewhere, it's the people further down that have to clean up the mess. It's doubtful developers agree with even half the ideas publishers and investors have, but still they have to deal with it. 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Shagger

[m76]

2 hours ago, Shagger said:

 

Sending death threats to people is not an acceptable way to behave under any circumstances, doing so over something like a video game just makes it arbitrary and completely stupid.

Just because the rest didn't send threats doesn't mean they wanted another delay.

I agree with the notion that new games should not be revealed over 12 months before the proposed release date. I said so myself elsewhere. There is no need to create hype earlier than that. Reveal 12 months, gameplay trailer 6 months before release, this way you cannot go wrong, as the bulk of the development is already behind you when you show the game. And 12 months is plenty of time to hype up the release. CP2077 was announced over 8 years ago. That was the mistake. Everything else comes from there. If it was only revealed at E3 2019 people would not be that on edge about a few months delay once or twice.

Edited January 10, 2021 by m76